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I have been reading a lot of early church history up to 325. Very facinating stuff. Unity really stands out. It was important to the early church that they continue in the apostle's doctrine, which was Jesus' doctrine. There is no Pope or Bishop of Rome in the second century. There are pluralities of elders in the local churches. The apostle Peter considered himself one of the elders, plural.
You cannot read the Bible without coming away with the idea that there was one church, and it was established by Jesus Christ. The apostles planted congregations everywhere, and they were all of one mind.
Very interesting stuff.
God Bless,
Katie
Hogwash!
There is a plethora of historical evidence that documents the bishop/pope in the 1st/2nd century and the power that they held.
Here are the early popes and the times they served:
I have been reading a lot of early church history up to 325. Very facinating stuff. Unity really stands out. It was important to the early church that they continue in the apostle's doctrine, which was Jesus' doctrine. There is no Pope or Bishop of Rome in the second century. There are pluralities of elders in the local churches. The apostle Peter considered himself one of the elders, plural.
You cannot read the Bible without coming away with the idea that there was one church, and it was established by Jesus Christ. The apostles planted congregations everywhere, and they were all of one mind.
Very interesting stuff.
God Bless,
Katie
I believe it is common knowledge that the other Apostolic Sees started out with many elders/bishops but then evolved to coming under just one for a number of reasons. Many historians and scholars, including some Catholic ones, believe that the early christian church was organized after the Jewish synagogue. However, Rome might be a different story. Romans always had a grandiose sense of self and self-importance. The Roman Church was probably modeled after the Roman government and old pagan religion. The fact remains, however, there was a Bishop of Rome, like there are Bishops (now some are called "Patriarches") of other Apotolic Sees in the first and second centuries and that that Bishop had successors, all the way down to the present day. There is enough archaeological and documentary evidence attesting to this. Only a few extremist sects really deny it. Anglicans, Lutherans, the Eastern Orthodox, and many other mainline groups do not.
So you already had Jesus in your heart when you were a Catholic? I am glad we did something right.
I am thrilled you are immersed in the history of the church. The history of Christianity is fascinating and in the end very important for Western civilization. The so-called Apostolic Age in the 1st century is important because the simple Christian doctrine of "GOODNESS" made a lot of sense to the converts. The message of Christianity was very different and just. Nevertheless, the early Christians were considered Pagans by the Romans.
The Protestants always say Peter was not the Pope. Because there is not a lot of evidence he was in Rome. However, is has been said that Jesus called Peter the rock and The catholic church interpreted this bible passage as evidence that the 1st leader of the church was Peter.
Nevertheless, I believe it is a moot point because in those days the church was not the massive institution it became several centuries later.
WIKI
Hi Julian,
Yes Jesus has been a part of my life for as long as I can remember. When I was a little girl, I used to love religion class. We had it first thing every morning. I have always had a facination with it. My Mom was a very faithful woman and still is at 94 years young. She didn't just talk the talk. She truly lived her faith. She was a great role model for her children and those around her.
When I was first married, to a catholic man, I lived with his family, and they had a big familly Bible. As often as I could, I would read it. I began to see things that didn't agree with what I'd always been taught. My younger sister was much like me, and we would talk about it all the time. Eventually, we both were baptized (immersed) into Christ. My Mom also left the catholic church and began to worship with my sister and I.
I do credit the nuns and the education they gave me, both secular and religious.
Please don't ever think that I believe catholics are bad people. On the contrary, I know many wonderful catholic folks, some related to me.
About the history.....I really like the ante-nicene. I have looked at the ECF's before but only concerning certain topics, baptism for one. I believe baptism is necessary for salvation, and it is for forgiveness of sins.
I cannot find evidence of a pope in the second century. I also can't find anything to support Peter passing authority to successors. I am reading the ECF's and not a catholic interpretation of what they said. There are plenty of direct quotes from the ante-nicene fathers on the internet. Thanks again for peaking my interest.
By the way, I think Peter was in Rome.
Katie
Last edited by MissKate12; 01-30-2012 at 03:21 PM..
I will rephrase the other post. "I've never met a former Catholic that wasn't arrogant enough to think that they knew better."
I'm not arrogant, nor do I think I know everything. I am still learning.
However, I have total faith in the word of God. I believe it is inspired and infallible. Everything I believe is based on the Bible. Therefore, I am confident in my beliefs.
I know there is a plethora of catholic websites with this kind of info posted.
I am interested in reading actual quotes from the ante nicene fathers. So far I haven't found anything in early church history that shows a pope in the second century. I see lots of references to pluralities of elders, but never one elder above all others.
I know there is a plethora of catholic websites with this kind of info posted.
I am interested in reading actual quotes from the ante nicene fathers. So far I haven't found anything in early church history that shows a pope in the second century. I see lots of references to pluralities of elders, but never one elder above all others.
I know there is a plethora of catholic websites with this kind of info posted.
I am interested in reading actual quotes from the ante nicene fathers. So far I haven't found anything in early church history that shows a pope in the second century. I see lots of references to pluralities of elders, but never one elder above all others.
Katie
Katie:
In the era of the apostles oral tradition was the was main way to pass information from generation to generation. As you know the bible was being created during those days and you could not go to a book store to buy a copy of the NT. Very few things were laid down on papyrus and we are lucky to have the Gospels.
The Apostolic succession was very important for the early Christians because they needed to preserve the message of Christ in the most pure manner. They also needed to spread the teachings of Jesus as accurately as possible and the best way to do this was with apostolic succession. Otherwise, anyone could show up 50 or 60 years after Christ and invent a heretic story about Jesus. In fact this was often the case and the issue was solved by those that were part of the apostolic succession.
So I hope you accept the concept that in the immediate post Jesus era Apostolic succession was needed to preserve the message of Christ and to spread Christianity.
Lest assume you are correct and that the early Christians were very similar to the folks in your church. Lets assume the Christians of that era were leaderless and had no bishops. Lets also assume they simply followed the bible. However, I seriously doubt they could find a copy.
Then Constantine appears, recognizes Christianity, and provides the Roman machimery for the hyper-expansion of Christianity to the rest of the world.
Within this framework:
What happened to the fundamentalist church of that era?
Did they suddenly converted to Catholicism in 325?
Who was running the Christian church up to the era of Constantine?
Katie:
Those that write history write the history that is beneficial to them. Like it or not there is written evidence of a Papal succession as well as Apostolic succession. Who knows? Maybe the succession was broken at one point? But that changes nothing? The concept remains the same. Only the Catholic church can claim Apostolic and Papal succession. BTW, this is recognized by mainstream Protestant churches.
I cannot find evidence of a pope in the second century. I also can't find anything to support Peter passing authority to successors. I am reading the ECF's and not a catholic interpretation of what they said. There are plenty of direct quotes from the ante-nicene fathers on the internet. Thanks again for peaking my interest.
By the way, I think Peter was in Rome.
Katie
The term "Pope" or papa wasn't used exclusively as a title for the Bishop of Rome until St. Gregory VII in 1073, before many presbyters and presbyter-bishops (episkopi) were affectionately called "papa" which is an affectionate short-hand term for father or padre. So of course you won't find evidence for a "Pope" in the first and second centuries, but you will find evidence for a Bishop of Rome. You just said you believe Peter was in Rome. And Paul spoke of bishops and presbyters of other churches or "assemblies," why not Rome?
After the Ascension, Peter took the leadership of the Apostles. He spoke on the day of Pentecost and was the first to perform a miracle in the name of Jesus. He accepted Cornelius for baptism and thus opened the Church to the Gentiles. His authority is evident at the Apostles' Council at Jerusalem, although Paul rebuked him for giving in to the demands of the Jewish Christians to disassociate himself from the Gentiles.
Quote:
...Peter is the founder of the Church in Antioch. He probably went to Rome and was crucified head downward during the reign of Nero (54-68).
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