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Augustine developed his doctrine of Original Sin during his lifetime (354 to 430 AD) using an incorrect Latin translation of Paul's Epistle to the Romans . However, Augustine's writing were not generally known in the Eastern Church so Augustine's theory never took hold there.
The Eastern Church split from the Western Church in 1054 AD.
The Imaculate Conception dogma is of comparatively recent origin (1854 AD). A feast of the Conception of Mary, like a feast of the Conception of St. John existed about 700 AD, but the "Immaculate" part is quite new.
Te Catholic Encyclopedia admits:
"No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture."
"Originally the Church celebrated only the Feast of the Conception of Mary, as she kept the Feast of St. John's conception, not discussing the sinlessness. This feast in the course of centuries became the Feast of the Immaculate Conception, as dogmatical argumentation brought about precise and correct ideas, and as the thesis of the theological schools regarding the preservation of Mary from all stain of original sin gained strength".
"But the attempts to introduce it officially provoked contradiction and theoretical discussion, bearing upon its legitimacy and its meaning, which were continued for centuries and were not definitively settled before 1854".
Mariology is a never ending process. Mary had to be free of sin if she was the mother of Christ. Initially being an innocent virgin was enough, then Mary had to be sinless because Jesus cannot be in contact with sin and part of Jesus comes from Mary (The DNA). Then Mary had to be the product of an Immaculate Conception to be free of sin.
Mary is huge in the church even though there is usually no mention of Mary during daily mass.
I don't pray to Mary, but I certainly enjoy the Mariology.
I don't put down those that pray to Mary because God is listening.
I posted this in another thread but it is very relevant to this one. It is just "food for thought":
The Catholic and Orthodox churches were united as one at one time. There is a matter of opinion on who broke from who. Today, many Catholics and Orthodox pray for re-union and even use the term "Cathodox."
Both the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church recognizes the Apostolic succession of their priests and bishops/patriarches as valid, for this and other reasons they also recognize each other's Eucharist as valid:http://www.catholic.com/tracts/eastern-orthodoxy: :
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In 1965, Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras I of Constantinople lifted mutual excommunications dating from the eleventh century, and in 1995, Pope John Paul II and Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople concelebrated the Eucharist together.
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While Catholics and Eastern Orthodox are separate for the moment, what
unites us is still far greater than what divides us, and there are abundant reasons for optimism regarding reconciliation in the future. Over the last several decades, there has been a marked lessening of tensions and overcoming of long-standing hostilities.
In 1965, Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras I of Constantinople lifted mutual excommunications dating from the eleventh century, and in 1995, Pope John Paul II and Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople concelebrated the Eucharist together. John Paul II, the first Slavic pope, has made the reconciliation of Eastern and Western Christendom a special theme of his pontificate, and he has released a large number of documents and addresses honoring the contributions of Eastern Christendom and seeking to promote unity between Catholics and Orthodox.
It is again becoming possible to envision a time when the two communions will be united and, by the power of the Holy Spirit, fulfill their duty in bringing about Christ’s solemn desire and command "that they may be one" (John 17:11).
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4. What We Share. Despite disagreement on the place of the bishop of Rome in the worldwide cohesion of Christianity, however, it seems to us obvious that what we share, as Orthodox and Catholic Christians, significantly overshadows our differences. Both our Churches emphasize the continuity of apostolic teaching as the heart of our faith, received within the interpretive context of the historical Christian community. Both believe our life as Churches to be centered on the Divine Liturgy, and to be formed and nourished in each individual by the Word of God and the Church’s sacraments: baptism, the anointing with chrism, and the reception of the Eucharist mark, in each of our Churches, the entry of believers into the Body of Christ, while ordination by a bishop sets some of them apart for permanent sacramental ministry and leadership, and the marriage of a Christian man and woman within the liturgical community forms them into living signs of the union of Christ and the Church. Both our Churches recognize that “the Church of God exists where there is a community gathered together in the Eucharist, presided over, directly or through his presbyters, by a bishop legitimately ordained into the apostolic succession, teaching the faith received from the apostles, in communion with the other bishops and their Churches” (Joint International Dialogue, Ravenna Statement [2007] 18). Both our Churches, too, recognize the importance of various kinds of primacy, as the Ravenna statement further affirms: “Primacy at all levels is a practice firmly grounded in the canonical tradition of the Church,” even though “there are differences of understanding with regard to the manner in which it is to be exercised, and also with regard to its scriptural and theological foundations” (ibid. 43). Both our Churches venerate Mary, the Mother of God, as the foremost among those transformed by the grace of Christ’s redemption, and both also honor a whole range of holy men and women from every age, many of them common to our two traditions. Both our Churches cherish ancient practices that help the faithful grow in holiness, value personal asceticism and fasting, reverence sacred images, promote the monastic life, and set a high value on contemplative prayer. In all of these ways, our lives as Churches are enriched by the same spiritual resources. A significant degree of communion already exists between us.
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...In summary, Orthodoxy does not reject Roman primacy as such, but simply a particular way of understanding that primacy. Within a reintegrated Christendom the bishop of Rome will be considered primus inter pares serving the unity of God's Church in love. He cannot be accepted as set up over the Church as a ruler whose diakonia is conceived through legalistic categories of power of jurisdiction. His authority must be understood, not according to standards of earthly authority and domination, but according to terms of loving ministry and humble service (Matt. 20:25‑27).[44]
...In a reintegrated Christendom, when the pope takes his place once more as primus inter pares within the Orthodox Catholic communion, the bishop of Rome will have the initiative to summon a synod of the whole Church. The bishop of Rome will, of course, preside over such a synod and his office may coordinate the life and the witness of the Orthodox Catholic church and in times of need be its spokesman. The role of acting as the voice of the Church is not, however, to be restricted to any hierarchical order within the Church, still less to a single see. In principle, any bishop, priest or layman may be called by the Holy Spirit to proclaim the true faith
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7. The Role of the Papacy. In such a communion of Churches, the role of the bishop of Rome would have to be carefully defined, both in continuity with the ancient structural principles of Christianity and in response to the need for a unified Christian message in the world of today. Although the details of that role would have to be worked out in a synodal way, and would require a genuine willingness on both sides to accommodate one another’s concerns, a few likely characteristics of this renewed Roman primacy would be these:
a) The bishop of Rome would be, by ancient custom, the “first” of the world’s bishops and of the regional patriarchs. His “primacy of honor” would mean, as it meant in the early Church, not simply honorific precedence but the authority to make real decisions, appropriate to the contexts in which he is acting. His relationship to the Eastern Churches and their bishops, however, would have to be substantially different from the relationship now accepted in the Latin Church. The present Eastern Catholic Churches would relate to the bishop of Rome in the same way as the present Orthodox Churches would. The leadership of the pope would always be realized by way of a serious and practical commitment to synodality and collegiality.
In May of 2001, Pope John Paul II visited Athens, Greece, the first visit of a pope in nearly 1300 years. Pope John Paul II and Archbishop Christodoulos met at the Aereopagus, where the Apostle Paul preached to Athenians 2000 years ago.
Pope John Paul II stated: "For occasions past and present when the sons and daughters of the Catholic Church have sinned by actions and omission against their Orthodox brothers and sisters, may the Lord grant us the forgiveness we beg of Him." Many Orthodox regard this as a "political" apology for the sacking of Constantinople in 1204, as well as for other issues, but it was clearly not in any way or form a religious or doctrinal apology on the part of the Roman Catholic Church.
In April 2004, in a speech on the 800th anniversary of the city's capture, Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I formally accepted the apology. "The spirit of reconciliation is stronger than hatred," he said during a liturgy attended by Roman Catholic Archbishop Philippe Barbarin of Lyon, France. "We receive with gratitude and respect your cordial gesture for the tragic events of the Fourth Crusade. It is a fact that a crime was committed here in the city 800 years ago." Bartholomew said his acceptance came in the spirit of Pascha. "The spirit of reconciliation of the resurrection... incites us toward reconciliation of our churches."[
Until 1054 they were ONE church, so they share the same origin. As the RCC they can also claim to be the original church founded by Christ.
But what about Protestantism? When Martin Luther posted his 95 theses on the door of the Castle Church in Wittenberg, Germany, he was a Catholc. The church that was formed as a result of his action clearly shared the same origin as the Roman Catholic Church, as did most of the other Protestant churches that followed.
Augustine developed his doctrine of Original Sin during his lifetime (354 to 430 AD) using an incorrect Latin translation of Paul's Epistle to the Romans . However, Augustine's writing were not generally known in the Eastern Church so Augustine's theory never took hold there.
The Eastern Church split from the Western Church in 1054 AD.
The Imaculate Conception dogma is of comparatively recent origin (1854 AD). A feast of the Conception of Mary, like a feast of the Conception of St. John existed about 700 AD, but the "Immaculate" part is quite new.
Te Catholic Encyclopedia admits:
"No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture."
"Originally the Church celebrated only the Feast of the Conception of Mary, as she kept the Feast of St. John's conception, not discussing the sinlessness. This feast in the course of centuries became the Feast of the Immaculate Conception, as dogmatical argumentation brought about precise and correct ideas, and as the thesis of the theological schools regarding the preservation of Mary from all stain of original sin gained strength".
"But the attempts to introduce it officially provoked contradiction and theoretical discussion, bearing upon its legitimacy and its meaning, which were continued for centuries and were not definitively settled before 1854".
To me, it just seems like the issue of papal authority would itself be a deal-breaker. For the Eastern Orthodox Churches not to accept the Pope seems to me to be something the Roman Catholic Church would call an act of heresy.
But what about Protestantism? When Martin Luther posted his 95 theses on the door of the Castle Church in Wittenberg, Germany, he was a Catholc. The church that was formed as a result of his action clearly shared the same origin as the Roman Catholic Church, as did most of the other Protestant churches that followed.
They don't have Apostolic succession, the protestant churches can't trace their line of leaders to the Apostles, so no.
They don't have Apostolic succession, the protestant churches can't trace their line of leaders to the Apostles, so no.
I'm confused. Once the Eastern Orthodox Church split from the Roman Catholic Church, it seems to me that any subsequent leadership in the Orthodox Church would no longer hold the authority Roman Catholics believe is essential. Wouldn't their apostolic succession have ended in 1054 A.D?
I'm confused. Once the Eastern Orthodox Church split from the Roman Catholic Church, it seems to me that any subsequent leadership in the Orthodox Church would no longer hold the authority Roman Catholics believe is essential. Wouldn't their apostolic succession have ended in 1054 A.D?
Nope. Apostolic succession comes from any of the Apostles, not just Peter. The RCC just believes that Peter had primacy over the others. The RCC recognizes the Apostolic succession of the leaders of the Orthodox churches as valid. Please refer to the post I made about this a little ways back. Post #12 just above.
To me, it just seems like the issue of papal authority would itself be a deal-breaker. For the Eastern Orthodox Churches not to accept the Pope seems to me to be something the Roman Catholic Church would call an act of heresy.
Sadly, this is still true. But we're trying to work it out.
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