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Do you believe in cause and effect ?.Your faith and turning to Him is the effect of what God caused to happen ?
Yes I believe in cause and effect. When I heard the gospel, I believed, which caused me to repent and be baptized. So yes, the word caused me to act. But I had a choice Paul.
I don't know if I've shared this with you or not, but my response to the gospel was not instant. It took me about six weeks of studying with my sister and some friends.
One evening we were studying, and the man leading the study read the passage from Galatians 5 where it lists the sins of the flesh. It was at that precise moment that I was convicted.
I had a choice Paul. God didn't force me to go to these Bible studies. I had always had an interest in the Bible, however, from the time I was a small child.
I believe God draws us to Him through His word, but never does He force us to love and accept His offer of salvation. What kind of love is it if it is forced? No, Jesus wants us to come to Him freely, whosoever will.
Maybe I should ask you again. Do you believe in free will?
Thank you for your respectful posts, and the good discussion.
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. (John 14:6)
How can anyone read this verse, and think they can go to heaven without going through Jesus. He is the ONLY way! Katie
Yes, Christ is the way, and you must take that way while you are living, as that is the ONLY way to life, and the other way leads to death. God draws us to Him, but that does not mean everyone will come, and that is painfully clear when you look around. Every day people die rejecting the Lord. Someone mentioned Romans 2:4 to prove that God saves all people, but even that verse says that many show contempt to God's efforts to drawn them to Him: " Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?". Romans 2 goes on to say that for those who follow Christ there is eternal life, and for those who reject Him there is only God's judgment and wrath and anger.
Anyone who tells you that God will make you choose Jesus after you die is lying. The Bible is a book for the living, not for the dead.
The great deception which is being pushed on this "christianity" forum (on practically every thread) is that Jesus is the way, but you don't need to know that, because all roads lead to Jesus and everyone will be forced through that way, like it or not. It is a lie.
The Bible is very clear that this is not the case, and someone even asked Jesus the very question, and He told them that people who take the wrong path are thrown out of the Kingdom Of God:
Luke 13:23 “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”
He said to them, “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’
“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
“Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
“But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’
“There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 04-28-2012 at 08:13 AM..
Yes I believe in cause and effect. When I heard the gospel, I believed, which caused me to repent and be baptized. So yes, the word caused me to act. But I had a choice Paul.
I don't know if I've shared this with you or not, but my response to the gospel was not instant. It took me about six weeks of studying with my sister and some friends.
One evening we were studying, and the man leading the study read the passage from Galatians 5 where it lists the sins of the flesh. It was at that precise moment that I was convicted.
I had a choice Paul. God didn't force me to go to these Bible studies. I had always had an interest in the Bible, however, from the time I was a small child.
I believe God draws us to Him through His word, but never does He force us to love and accept His offer of salvation. What kind of love is it if it is forced? No, Jesus wants us to come to Him freely, whosoever will.
Maybe I should ask you again. Do you believe in free will?
Thank you for your respectful posts, and the good discussion.
Katie
Katie reading this post tells me you do not believe in cause and effect, you are saying by believing you caused God to save you.
Romans 2:4 says
*Or despiseth thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
It was God Katie that led you( the cause) to believe(the effect)
IMO, a false Christ would NOT be the one who died for our sins that we may have eternal life and forgiveness.
He paid the price for all the sins of the world so we could be forgiven.
He reconciled a fallen creation to the unconditional loving Father.
His death, burial and time with the captives, teaching the good news brought all of us from captivity giving us the freedom from the ancient laws and teachings that seperated us from God.
I thank God for sending His son to us so we may approach the throne of God one on one where one day all of mankind will bow in humble submission to His glory.
I carry no label of Christianity nor any doctrine of man and I have yet to see any of the Universalists on this forum deny that salvation comes through Jesus..
Thank you Pleroo. I was wondering what you think a follower of Christ is? Do you see it differently, or is there something you might add to my list? Like I said, a lot more could be said, but those things I listed were what came to mind.
Hope you have a great Saturday. Must be a day off for you.
Everyday is a day off for me. Retirement is the best!
Katie
I believe that the temptation is to concoct one-size-fits-all list/cross and hoist it onto people to carry, rather than allowing each person to follow in the way that Christ is leading them.
Jesus said:
For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.'
the Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, Lo, a man, a glutton, and a wine-drinker, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners...
(Everyone has their own ideas that they want to impose on everyone else.)
"Come unto me, all ye laboring and burdened ones, and I will give you rest,take up my yoke upon you, and learn from me, because I am meek and humble in heart, and ye shall find rest to your souls,"
We each have to listen for ourselves to the voice of Christ -- not let others tell us what the voice is saying ... we'll know when it's the right voice because it will not be burdensome, and it will give rest to our soul (a bit of a play on words there, I think ... he who would lose his soul [r.i.p. soul] for the sake of following Christ, will find it.)
Hi Katie. I asked that question because Saved said the spirits in prison were fallen angels and then asked me where humans were called spirits. But to answer your question, I don't know if "born again" would be the terminology for fallen angels but I do believe the bible about the restitution of all things.
I did miss your other post. Sorry about that. It seems to me that you went to a lot of trouble to try to explain away the verse that says HE WENT to speak to these people who died a long time before.
Hi BHFT,
Yes the verse is a difficult one for sure, but when you look at it closely, it is not at all saying that Jesus preached to the unsaved in hades.
I hope you do take the time to read and understand my post. You don't have to agree, but I wanted you to see another point of view.
I tried to make the explanation as clear as I could and keep it short at the same time. That was a challenge.
The long and short of it is that the passage doesn't say Jesus preached to the lost people in hades. His Spirit, the Holy Spirit did the preaching through Noah to the people of Noah's day. Throughout history, the Holy Spirit has always preached through men who were chosen by God to proclaim His message.
I believe that the temptation is to concoct one-size-fits-all list/cross and hoist it onto people to carry, rather than allowing each person to follow in the way that Christ is leading them.
Jesus said:
For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.'
the Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, Lo, a man, a glutton, and a wine-drinker, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners...
(Everyone has their own ideas that they want to impose on everyone else.)
"Come unto me, all ye laboring and burdened ones, and I will give you rest,take up my yoke upon you, and learn from me, because I am meek and humble in heart, and ye shall find rest to your souls,"
We each have to listen for ourselves to the voice of Christ -- not let others tell us what the voice is saying ... we'll know when it's the right voice because it will not be burdensome, and it will give rest to our soul (a bit of a play on words there, I think ... he who would lose his soul [r.i.p. soul] for the sake of following Christ, will find it.)
As long as you are listening to His voice through His word, and not some extra Biblical source. Because then it becomes the voices of men.
I don't believe you can base true Biblical christianity on feelings. To define christian, or follower of Christ, you must let Christ speak to it through His words, not through men saying what they think.
But that is a personal decision each of us has to make. Claim to be a follower of Jesus based on His words, or claim to be a follower based on personal feelings.
The only thing I would add is that God speaks to us through the beauty around us, through His magnificent creation. But to have true knowledge of Him and His Son, one must turn to His word.
Course I don't expect you will believe any of this, but that's okay. I love you anyway, and I'll keep trying.
Katie reading this post tells me you do not believe in cause and effect, you are saying by believing you caused God to save you.
Romans 2:4 says
*Or despiseth thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
It was God Katie that led you( the cause) to believe(the effect)
I probably don't believe it the way you do. Like I said God draws us to Him through His word, but we have the choice to accept or reject Him. He doesn't force His will on anyone.
What kind of love would it be if it were forced?
Like I said, "Faith comes by hearing the word of God." I chose to hear. I wasn't forced
Yes God led me to repentance. How? Through His word. Remember how I told you how Galatians 5 hit me?
And finally, yes I am saying my faith caused God to save me. No one will be saved without faith. That's a pretty prevalent message throughout the NT. We are saved by grace through faith. We are commanded to have faith.
It sounds like you don't believe in free will afterall. Are you Calvinist? I ask with all due respect. I know calvinism teaches that God chooses who He wants to be saved, and condemns everyone else. Calvinism seems opposite to what universalists believe, unless I am misunderstanding.
Yes, Christ is the way, and you must take that way while you are living, as that is the ONLY way to life, and the other way leads to death. God draws us to Him, but that does not mean everyone will come, and that is painfully clear when you look around. Every day people die rejecting the Lord. Someone mentioned Romans 2:4 to prove that God saves all people, but even that verse says that many show contempt to God's efforts to drawn them to Him: " Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?". Romans 2 goes on to say that for those who follow Christ there is eternal life, and for those who reject Him there is only God's judgment and wrath and anger.
Anyone who tells you that God will make you choose Jesus after you die is lying. The Bible is a book for the living, not for the dead.
The great deception which is being pushed on this "christianity" forum (on practically every thread) is that Jesus is the way, but you don't need to know that, because all roads lead to Jesus and everyone will be forced through that way, like it or not. It is a lie.
The Bible is very clear that this is not the case, and someone even asked Jesus the very question, and He told them that people who take the wrong path are thrown out of the Kingdom Of God:
Luke 13:23 “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”
He said to them, “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’
“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
“Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
“But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’
“There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out
Thank you for posting these scriptures.
God draws us to Him but not all will respond to His call.
God draws us to Him but not all will respond to His call.
Katie
Unfortunately alternate teachings such as universalism persuade people to not respond to the call. It sends a message saying that there is no point in seeking God, because God will seek you, and if that does not happen during this lifetime, then it will happen after death. It is a very dangerous teaching.
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