Purgatory - do you believe in it? (doctrine, beliefs, scriptures)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
What may non-Catholics don't understand is that there is a difference between forgiveness and penance. Yes, Christ died for our sins once and for all, and yes, you can be forgiven, but that doesn't mean you don't have to do penance. That is the accountability. That's what Purgatory is for. Yes, there is a heaven and hell, but there is a foyer, if you will, to heaven to prepare you for it.
The rich man was in hell. Lazarus was NOT. But they could still see each other, and while the rich man was in a place of torment, Lazarus was not. That's Purgatory.
Lazarus was in the side of Hades referred to as 'Abraham's Bosom' (Luke 16:22) and which was called 'Paradise' by Jesus (Luke 23:43).
Before the resurrection of Jesus Christ all believers went to the Paradise side of Hades when they died physically. Since the resurrection of Jesus Christ 'Paradise' has been transferred to the 3rd heaven (2 Cor. 12:2-4).
The Paradise side of Hades was not purgatory. And the 'Torments' side of Hades (Luke 16:23) is where unbelievers go at death where they await the great white throne judgment at the end of the Millennium after which they will be transferred into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:10-15). The 'Torments' side of Hades is not purgatory either.
What may non-Catholics don't understand is that there is a difference between forgiveness and penance. Yes, Christ died for our sins once and for all, and yes, you can be forgiven, but that doesn't mean you don't have to do penance. That is the accountability. That's what Purgatory is for. Yes, there is a heaven and hell, but there is a foyer, if you will, to heaven to prepare you for it.
GoodToBeHome, the Bible does not teach penance just as it does not teach purgatory. The Bible teaches repentance - metanoia, which refers to a change of mind. It does not refer to feeling sorry for your sins. And repentance is not penance. The believer will undergo divine discipline for sin while he is alive on this earth as per Heb. 12:5-11, but at physical death he goes into the presence of the Lord in heaven (2 Cor. 5:8; Phil 1:23; Acts 7:55-60).
Last edited by Michael Way; 08-08-2012 at 10:30 AM..
Lazarus was in the side of Hades referred to as 'Abraham's Bosom' (Luke 16:22) and which was called 'Paradise' by Jesus (Luke 23:43).
Before the resurrection of Jesus Christ all believers went to the Paradise side of Hades when they died physically. Since the resurrection of Jesus Christ 'Paradise' has been transferred to the 3rd heaven (2 Cor. 12:2-4).
The Paradise side of Hades was not purgatory. And the 'Torments' side of Hades (Luke 16:23) is where unbelievers go at death where they await the great white throne judgment at the end of the Millennium after which they will be transferred into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:10-15). The 'Torments' side of Hades is not purgatory either.
The Bible does not teach purgatory.
Mike, the Bible does not say Paradise was transfered to the third Heaven. Paul knew of Paradise and the 3rd Heaven as two differant places during his ministry which was after the resurrection. Therefor Paradise still existed during his ministry and it does today. No where can you find that it ceased to exist. In fact Jesus said in Revelation that Paridise does exist, REV 2:7 "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches; To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the Tree of Life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God."
Those in Paradise will rise as we will also who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord to the 3rd Heaven in the Clouds of Glory. The fact that they will rise can only mean to another Heaven higher than Paradise and which is called the 3rd Heaven, the final abode.
Location: where people are either too stupid to leave or too stuck to move
3,982 posts, read 6,687,625 times
Reputation: 3689
Quote:
Originally Posted by RuralMissionary
if what meant like rapist, killers, etc? You mean that we're somehow better off because we (presumably) haven't done those things?
No I mean that those aren't the only people that go. Most people think it will be the bad people like hitler , jerry Sandusky , bin laden, your neighborhood rapist , bill Madeoff. But nope it will be most of everyone who haven't done horrible things like your family and friends . However I hope I'm wrong. I hope it's not this way
What may non-Catholics don't understand is that there is a difference between forgiveness and penance. Yes, Christ died for our sins once and for all, and yes, you can be forgiven, but that doesn't mean you don't have to do penance. That is the accountability. That's what Purgatory is for. Yes, there is a heaven and hell, but there is a foyer, if you will, to heaven to prepare you for it.
Mike, the Bible does not say Paradise was transfered to the third Heaven. Paul knew of Paradise and the 3rd Heaven as two differant places during his ministry which was after the resurrection. Therefor Paradise still existed during his ministry and it does today. No where can you find that it ceased to exist. In fact Jesus said in Revelation that Paridise does exist, REV 2:7 "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches; To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the Tree of Life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God."
Those in Paradise will rise as we will also who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord to the 3rd Heaven in the Clouds of Glory. The fact that they will rise can only mean to another Heaven higher than Paradise and which is called the 3rd Heaven, the final abode.
We've been over this before Garya. I did not say that Paradise ceased to exist (see post #32). I said that Paradise is now in the third heaven. Prior to the resurrection of Jesus Christ Paradise, also called Abraham's Bosom in Luke 16:22 was one of the compartments of Hades. Since the time of the resurrection of Jesus Christ Paradise is now in the third heaven just as 2 Cor. 12:2-4 says it is. And every believer who was in the Paradise side of Hades was transferred to the third heaven - Paradise, which is the throneroom of God. Paradise and the third heaven are synonymous terms.
To put it another way, every believer that was in the Paradise side of Hades prior to the resurrection of Jesus Christ is now in the third heaven which Paul identified as Paradise.
We've been over this before Garya. I did not say that Paradise ceased to exist (see post #32). I said that Paradise is now in the third heaven. Prior to the resurrection of Jesus Christ Paradise, also called Abraham's Bosom in Luke 16:22 was one of the compartments of Hades. Since the time of the resurrection of Jesus Christ Paradise is now in the third heaven just as 2 Cor. 12:2-4 says it is. And every believer who was in the Paradise side of Hades was transferred to the third heaven - Paradise, which is the throneroom of God. Paradise and the third heaven are synonymous terms.
To put it another way, every believer that was in the Paradise side of Hades prior to the resurrection of Jesus Christ is now in the third heaven which Paul identified as Paradise.
Ok, you said it was transfered, which I assumed to mean that those in Paradise were sent/transfered to the 3rd Heaven. That is not true either. Paradise is still called Paradise and the 3rd Heaven is still called the 3rd Heaven as Paul has told us of. Two distinct places.
Corinthians 12:2-4 does not say it or those in it were transfered. It says that two differant men saw two distinct places. How you possibly interpete it your way defys reason. In fact until now I really didn't know fully how you interpreted it because such an interpretation is too far out there. There is no need of further discussion as both our points have been made. I made my points so that others could see the alternative to what you say and judge for themselves. Understanding Cor. 12:2-4 is key to understanding a lot of Scripture, so I didn't let it go by.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
