Are you Saved if you have not been Baptised? (crucified, church, preaching)
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In churches that perform infant baptism, I've often encountered confusion among adults who question whether that baptism 'counts' -- Unfortunately, 'infant dedication service', (a commitment by the parents), ... also causes some people to believe they are Christians ... because they were baptized as infants. IMO, the latter results largely from pastors who are either uncertain themselves ... or who simply fail to adequately explain what is going-on to the parents or the congregation. For this reason, I oppose infant baptism/dedication/commitment services of almost any kind. The only positive thing I've seen come out of it is the opportunity to truly lead someone to a saving belief in Christ... followed by their baptism.
With regard to the latter, Salvation is a matter of believing in Christ in one's heart ... and being reborn in God's Holy Spirit. Baptism itself has no bearing on one's Salvation and Spiritual rebirth. It is instead, an outward sign of an inward change/condition. However, it does provide an opportunity for a new believer to actively follow Christ in 'believer's baptism.' Also, when a professing believer resists water baptism, it provides a further opportunity (like with infant baptism above) .. to get to the heart of their belief. (Sometimes, folks are simply saying, "I want to go to heaven" ... which, can also result from inadequately explaining the Gospel ... or 'scalp-hunting: 'leading people to believe that Salvation is only about 'making a trip to an altar' or 'saying a sinner's prayer.'
I really like what you said here, but would like to add that my church does newborn dedications (actually sometimes the kids are up to a year or two, depending), but does not use water and strongly makes clear that it is neither regenerative nor salvific in any way. It's really an opportunity for the parents to commit to raising their child in a Christian home in a way that honors Jesus and leads the child to him.
I have heard it both ways. I have heard that even if you give your heart to Jesus and profess His Name as The Messiah, if you have not been Baptised you still are not Saved
I have heard that Baptism is merely a public display of Faith and is not required for Salvation, because Jesus already took care of that on The Cross
John 3:4-6 - Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Clearly the "born of the water" speaks of birth from the womb of a woman in the flesh - and not water baptism. What happens when it's time for a baby to be born? The water breaks.
So are you saying that Jesus told Nicodemus, a teacher of the law, that he had to be born physically in order to enter the kingdom of God, as if Nicodemus was such a dolt he couldn't figure that out himself? Besides, is there anyone in the world who got here any other way than by physical birth? If if there is, isn't it a little late to be telling them they have to be born physically in order to enter the kingdom of God?
Re John 3:5 -- a couple of reasons why this isn't referring to physical birth. First, physical birth is never referred to as being "born of water." It is always, 100% of the time, referred to as being "born of the flesh." Second, grammatically speaking, Jesus is referring to a single birth. One birth that involves both water and Spirit. The only point in time that I know of in the Christian life when water and Spirit come together is at our baptism (see Acts 2:38).
Re John 3:5 -- a couple of reasons why this isn't referring to physical birth. First, physical birth is never referred to as being "born of water." It is always, 100% of the time, referred to as being "born of the flesh." Second, grammatically speaking, Jesus is referring to a single birth. One birth that involves both water and Spirit. The only point in time that I know of in the Christian life when water and Spirit come together is at our baptism (see Acts 2:38).
So if that's the case, then would a Baptism not be considered a 'work of hands'
Two points:
1) I would begin with closely reading Jesus' words when he says:
Mark 16:16
Whoever believes andisbaptizedwill be saved, but whoever does not believewill be condemned.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Mark 16:16 says there is only one category of people who are condemned: those who do not believe. It says nothing about people who believe but are not baptized. However, the Bible repeats some 200 times that salvation is dependent on belief.
This was something I struggled with for a while as well. The reason is the Lord referring to the "water and Spirit". After studying many other passages, I've come to the conclusion that water is symbolic.
John 4:9-14
King James Version (KJV)
9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
When Moses struck the Rock in the Wilderness Water came rushing out and the Israelites drank. The source of the water was the Rock.
Water is also referred to as the "washing of the water by the word."
Ephesians 5:26
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word
So I really don't know what "water" is referring to but I do not believe it is literal water or that would contradict many other passages.
Isaiah 28:9-16
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
So are you saying that Jesus told Nicodemus, a teacher of the law, that he had to be born physically in order to enter the kingdom of God, as if Nicodemus was such a dolt he couldn't figure that out himself? Besides, is there anyone in the world who got here any other way than by physical birth? If if there is, isn't it a little late to be telling them they have to be born physically in order to enter the kingdom of God?
To answer for my myself. No, I don't think that Jesus was insulting Nicodemus by saying something he already knew but that he was telling him it was not enough to be born of the flesh only and certainly not born again of the flesh. After all it was Nicodemus, the great teacher of the law, that thought Jesus was a "doit" by saying "you must be born again". Jesus was only telling him rebirth of flesh was not what He meant, by contrasting the two types of birth, one of the flesh and one of the Spirit.
Interesting to note in this that spiritual Truth parralells earthly truth as all Truth does. One is born of water of the womb physically and one is born again of the water of the Spirit. Perhaps why some can get the literal mixed up with the spiritual as I have also done many times.
Last edited by garya123; 08-22-2012 at 07:57 AM..
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