Are you Saved if you have not been Baptised? (doctrine, woman, churches)
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The Scriptures talk about "one baptism". This is referring to Baptism of the Holy Spirit. This comes upon an individual when they believe the gospel and repent which is a one-time, once-and-for-all event. Repentance is a daily, life-long commitment, but Justification comes at the moment one believes with them "passing from death to life". One must be "born again" to be saved.
Ultimately one is Saved from Eternal Hell by the presence of God's Holy Spirit which Justifies the believer as "in Christ" the passover lamb.
Wars have been fought over water baptism. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit unifies. It is an act of God not man. If it was up to man he'd mess it up as is demonstrated by the Wars.
Baptism is an important public testimony that one has come to Christ. The Thief on the Cross was not baptized by water, and the man is in Paradise according to the Lord. There is a lot of Scripture to support that the Holy Spirit comes upon an individual upon believing, and there are a lot of posts on here talking about this topic easily found through a search which I highly recommend looking into.
The issue is the identity not the water. Submersion, etc is not the issue.
This is on target.
All who are saved have truly been baptized with the Holy Spirit.
Baptism in water is being born of water. Baptism of the Spirit is being born of the spirit. We must experience these to enter the kingdom of God. John 3:5
John 3:4-6 - Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Clearly the "born of the water" speaks of birth from the womb of a woman in the flesh - and not water baptism. What happens when it's time for a baby to be born? The water breaks.
John 3:4-6 - Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Clearly the "born of the water" speaks of birth from the womb of a woman in the flesh - and not water baptism. What happens when it's time for a baby to be born? The water breaks.
I used to think that, until I realized there's no way John would have possibly meant that. It's applying a modern understanding and terminology back into the past. People didn't talk that way.
Water here is most likely a reference to the repentance ministry of John the Baptist (with Spirit being the application by the Holy Spirit of Christ to an individual), but it does not necessitate baptism as we now practice it (post-cross) in order for salvation.
I have heard it both ways. I have heard that even if you give your heart to Jesus and profess His Name as The Messiah, if you have not been Baptised you still are not Saved
I have heard that Baptism is merely a public display of Faith and is not required for Salvation, because Jesus already took care of that on The Cross
What are your views on this?
Being baptized was one of things people in the first century were told to do to be saved. They were told this before and after the cross.
I used to think that, until I realized there's no way John would have possibly meant that. It's applying a modern understanding and terminology back into the past. People didn't talk that way.
I don't know how you get baptism here. The womb is mentioned in the preceding verse. Born in the flesh is mentioned in the next verse. Where is anyone talking about baptism?
The idea of water in the womb is a modern idea? You know - life did exist before modern America. Babies were born beyond the past 200 years. Has the method in which the womb works changed? If there's anyone who knows how the womb works, it would be Christ.
No one is born through water baptism. Christ never describes water baptism in those terms.
I don't know how you get baptism here. The womb is mentioned in the preceding verse. Born in the flesh is mentioned in the next verse. Where is anyone talking about baptism?
The idea of water in the womb is a modern idea? You know - life did exist before modern America. Babies were born beyond the past 200 years. Has the method in which the womb works changed? If there's anyone who knows how the womb works, it would be Christ.
No one is born through water baptism. Christ never describes water baptism in those terms.
Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations,baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Ephesians 5:25-27
Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless
Notice how we are made without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless ...." by the washing with water through the word " (baptism)
Romans 6:4
We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
1 Corinthians 6:11
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Hebrews 10:22
let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water
John 3:4-6 - Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Seems obvious that Jesus is relating to what Nicodemus is saying and thinking. Nicodemus could not get beyond thinking in natural terms of birth only. Jesus took him from thinging only in terms of the natural to thinging in terms of the Spiritual. One must not only be born of flesh from the water of the womb but also born of the Spirit to enter the Kingdom. This has never been so clear to me as it this day under a fresh annointing.
I used to think that, until I realized there's no way John would have possibly meant that. It's applying a modern understanding and terminology back into the past. People didn't talk that way.
Water here is most likely a reference to the repentance ministry of John the Baptist (with Spirit being the application by the Holy Spirit of Christ to an individual), but it does not necessitate baptism as we now practice it (post-cross) in order for salvation.
People didn't talk "that way"? How about Nicodemus asking Jesus how a man could re-enter his mother's womb when they talked of being born again?
Look, I don't believe water baptism is required for salvation, so don't jump all over me. All I'm saying is that trying to interpret John 3:5 as referring to amniotic fluid is not a good way to make the point. Regenerative water baptism obviously is not what the verse is talking about either.
This is from D.A. Carson's commentary on John:
Quote:
"there are no ancient sources that picture natural birth as ‘from water’, and the few that use ‘drops’ to stand for semen are rare and late. It is true that in sources relevant to the Fourth Gospel water can be associated with fecundity and procreation in a general way (e.g. Song 4:12-13; Pr. 5:15-18),1 but none is tied quite so clearly to semen or to amniotic fluid as to make the connection here an obvious one. The Greek construction does not favour two births here. Moreover the entire expression ‘of water and the Spirit’ cries out to be read as the equivalent of anōthen, ‘from above’, if there is genuine parallelism between v. 3 and v. 5, and this too argues that the expression should be taken as a reference to but one birth, not two."
...
"Most important of all is Ezekiel 36:25-27, where water and spirit come together so forcefully, the first to signify cleansing from impurity, and the second to depict the transformation of heart that will enable people to follow God wholly. And it is no accident that the account of the valley of dry bones, where Ezekiel preaches and the Spirit brings life to dry bones, follows hard after Ezekiel’s water/spirit passage (cf. Ezk. 37; and notes on 3:8, below). The language is reminiscent of the ‘new heart’ expressions that revolve around the promise of the new covenant (Je. 31:29ff.). Similar themes were sometimes picked up in later Judaism (e.g. Jubilees 1:23-25)."
In churches that perform infant baptism, I've often encountered confusion among adults who question whether that baptism 'counts' -- Unfortunately, 'infant dedication service', (a commitment by the parents), ... also causes some people to believe they are Christians ... because they were baptized as infants. IMO, the latter results largely from pastors who are either uncertain themselves ... or who simply fail to adequately explain what is going-on to the parents or the congregation. For this reason, I oppose infant baptism/dedication/commitment services of almost any kind. The only positive thing I've seen come out of it is the opportunity to truly lead someone to a saving belief in Christ... followed by their baptism.
With regard to the latter, Salvation is a matter of believing in Christ in one's heart ... and being reborn in God's Holy Spirit. Baptism itself has no bearing on one's Salvation and Spiritual rebirth. It is instead, an outward sign of an inward change/condition. However, it does provide an opportunity for a new believer to actively follow Christ in 'believer's baptism.' Also, when a professing believer resists water baptism, it provides a further opportunity (like with infant baptism above) .. to get to the heart of their belief. (Sometimes, folks are simply saying, "I want to go to heaven" ... which, can also result from inadequately explaining the Gospel ... or 'scalp-hunting: 'leading people to believe that Salvation is only about 'making a trip to an altar' or 'saying a sinner's prayer.'
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