Are you Saved if you have not been Baptised? (Messiah, believe, scriptures)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Mark 16:16 says there is only one category of people who are condemned: those who do not believe. It says nothing about people who believe but are not baptized. However, the Bible repeats some 200 times that salvation is dependent on belief.
Which this makes one of those things that goes beyond our human understanding.
This passage has multiple "one category of people"
those who are condemned are those who do not believe.
those who are saved are those who believe and is baptized
And the Bible also repeats that baptism saves and offers forgiveness of sins.
What does baptism do ?
just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless Ephesians 5:25-27
The power of Baptism is water connected to God's Word
In churches that perform infant baptism, I've often encountered confusion among adults who question whether that baptism 'counts' -- Unfortunately, 'infant dedication service', (a commitment by the parents), ... also causes some people to believe they are Christians ... because they were baptized as infants. IMO, the latter results largely from pastors who are either uncertain themselves ... or who simply fail to adequately explain what is going-on to the parents or the congregation. For this reason, I oppose infant baptism/dedication/commitment services of almost any kind. The only positive thing I've seen come out of it is the opportunity to truly lead someone to a saving belief in Christ... followed by their baptism.
With regard to the latter, Salvation is a matter of believing in Christ in one's heart ... and being reborn in God's Holy Spirit. Baptism itself has no bearing on one's Salvation and Spiritual rebirth. It is instead, an outward sign of an inward change/condition. However, it does provide an opportunity for a new believer to actively follow Christ in 'believer's baptism.' Also, when a professing believer resists water baptism, it provides a further opportunity (like with infant baptism above) .. to get to the heart of their belief. (Sometimes, folks are simply saying, "I want to go to heaven" ... which, can also result from inadequately explaining the Gospel ... or 'scalp-hunting: 'leading people to believe that Salvation is only about 'making a trip to an altar' or 'saying a sinner's prayer.'
... just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. Ephesians 5:25:27
Is faith a gift from God or a decision by man?
Was the church made holy by a decision of man?
Paul was objectively saved in Christ before the creation of the world (lit: eternal age):
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Clearly, Paul was saved prior to anything he did in this world.
What does baptism do ?
just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless Ephesians 5:25-27
The power of Baptism is water connected to God's Word
Amen... Twin !
I believe when Christ came into my life my wants and desires (life) completely changed ! I had such an hunger to know and follow my Lord.
I came to understand not through the teaching or preaching of another (men) but through the Holy Spirit leading me in my reading and studying, opening my heart to the things of the Lord and His will for my life. You know that new nature created in me to do that which is of my Lord, Christ Jesus, for the old is gone and new has come. The washing of His word from my old self, and Christ putting on the new man (woman) in me !!
He did tell us if we believe to be baptize and it is because of our love for the Lord one will honor it. Like you said, "Which this makes one of those things that goes beyond our human understanding." And I truly believe this. I don't completely understand it all myself but the Holy Spirit put in me the desire to be baptized and I was !
I believe Christ' nature (the Holy Spirit) in us will fulfill the desires, commands of our Lord, "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." (John14:15)
So.....
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned
[b] (Mark 16:16)
Just reading that one line of scripture really speaks to me.... "whoever believes and is baptized will be saved" "believes and is baptized." The two words go hand in hand with one another. One who believes will accept the baptizing part of what is commanded in the scripture because of their love for the Lord, amen.
John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
Yes, I believe genuine faith in Jesus Christ and His work on the cross for our sins is absolutely the ultimate sacrifice for our salvation.
Yet, one who believes (born again) seems to me will love and hunger to honor and obey the Lord in all that He commands us to do.
And I believe baptism is an act of obedience through faith that should be an immediate part of our acceptance of the gift of grace offered by Jesus Christ.
I also understand there are those circumstances, situations of those individuals like the thief on the cross and the death bed conversions that one is saved without the baptism !
Jesus Christ commanded baptism for His followers. Although the act of baptism does not cause eternal salvation, it seems to me that any believer who refuses baptism should truly examine his or her conversion, don't you think !!!
Matthew 28:18-20 (NASB)
18.And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19.Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
What does baptism do ?
just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless Ephesians 5:25-27
The power of Baptism is water connected to God's Word
It says only unbelievers are condemned, and 200 verses say you are saved through faith. The man crucified next to Jesus was not baptized, but he was saved anyway. Jesus will not tell you that you are saved by faith in Him, only to tun you back at the heavens gates by saying that you are condemned because you misunderstood Mark 16:16. Also Acts 2:38 doesn't say the baptism takes away the sins, it says you should get baptized because your sins have been removed (already removed).
Hmmm....I thought the holy spirit is God's active force?
According to the Watchtower Bible Tract Society he is, but not according to the Word of God who proclaims the Holy Spirit is a person and God. Lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God (Acts 5)
Re John 3:5 -- a couple of reasons why this isn't referring to physical birth. First, physical birth is never referred to as being "born of water." It is always, 100% of the time, referred to as being "born of the flesh." Second, grammatically speaking, Jesus is referring to a single birth. One birth that involves both water and Spirit. The only point in time that I know of in the Christian life when water and Spirit come together is at our baptism (see Acts 2:38).
I would allow your assertion based on this.
John 7:38-39 - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, `From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.' " But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
This would make the born of water and born of the Spirit synonymous.
Paul was objectively saved in Christ before the creation of the world (lit: eternal age):
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Clearly, Paul was saved prior to anything he did in this world.
I think you're taking Calvinist teachings a little too far here, or at least using poor wording.
Paul was not saved before he was born - he was saved when he believed in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Sure, the basis of his salvation had already taken place a couple years before that. You can even argue he was elected to his salvation from eternity past. But he wasn't saved in eternity past.
Mark 16:16 says there is only one category of people who are condemned: those who do not believe. It says nothing about people who believe but are not baptized. However, the Bible repeats some 200 times that salvation is dependent on belief.
This is correct.
The baptism mentioned in Mark 16 occurs from heaven with the Holy Spirit - without any human intervention.
What does Jesus say in John 7:38-39
John 7:38-39 - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, `From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.' " But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Those who believe in Christ would receive the Spirit.
What did Peter say?
Acts 2:38 - Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Those who were baptised in the name of Jesus would receive the Spirit.
So you have two instances - believe in Christ & baptism into Christ - where the Holy Spirit is received. Therefore, these two instances are functionally the same. This was illustrated in Acts 10.
Acts 10:44 - While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
... and validated by Peter in Acts 11.
Acts 11:15-17 - "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, `John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"
The fact that they received the Spirit indicates they had believed in Christ AND had been baptised into Christ as Jesus and Peter said.
It says only unbelievers are condemned, and 200 verses say you are saved through faith. The man crucified next to Jesus was not baptized, but he was saved anyway. Jesus will not tell you that you are saved by faith in Him, only to tun you back at the heavens gates by saying that you are condemned because you misunderstood Mark 16:16. Also Acts 2:38 doesn't say the baptism takes away the sins, it says you should get baptized because your sins have been removed (already removed).
Finn,
I don't know if you remember, but once I quoted a theologian who said about Mark 16:16 reguarding baptism. His comment was baptism is neccessary (Whoever believes andisbaptizedwill be saved), but not absolutly neccessary ( but whoever does not believewill be condemned.)
Have you forgotten the OP I have reguarding the 5 sola's? I have never stated that instances like the man on the cross was not saved. You say I have a misunderstanding of Mark 16:16 . so who are you attempting to claim doesn't understand ... me or the person who spoke it?
Whoever believesandisbaptizedwill be saved
but whoever does not believewill be condemned
Have you considered that the misunderstanding comes from the fact that scripture teaches both are the truth:
Whoever believesandisbaptizedwill be saved
and 200 verses say you are saved through faith.
Now, concerning Acts 2:38 doesn't say the baptism takes away the sins.
Can you tell me how
" It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ 1 Peter 3:20-21
and the church is made " as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless " Ephesians 5:25-27
if forgiveness of sins doesn't occure?
Baptism isn't simple water only for the dedication of meer rituals.
The power of Baptism is the water connected to God's Word. No other event in the NT (excluding the end of the world) has the Triune God appeared that people witnessed. And to relegate that to a meer dedication on behalf of humanities conscience? ... remarkable to the point of almost being uncomprehensible.
I don't believe that the reformed theology proponents understands\ comprehends the magnitude and ramifications of it's rejection of what baptism does.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
