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we had this discussion over and over again and I am very much tired of it
@ thrillobyte
I can remember you, sad that you're still troubled, but you must find and check the truth on your own, don't listen to the words of mere men, I found peace on this issue which is the reason that I am no longer much active here, but the debate seems still to be going on - for over 2 years now, did I miss anything of special interest, new scientific findings or the like of that?
I can only think of how, if I had children, I'd want them to think I was the very best dad in the world; that if they betrayed me I could never stop loving them for their treachery; that parents have a sense of justice too, but a parent's love for their children so powerfully overwhelms that sense of justice; that no parent in their right mind could send their own children to a torture chamber for eternity for what comparatively would be the most minor infraction against them; that parents who do that kind of thing have their children taken away from them, are branded the worst, sickest kinds of parents by society, and are severely punished with incarceration; that the worst criminals in prison have a sense of justice put in them by God that parents who have abused their children should be done away with in the worst possible manner---that even the most heinous criminals realize instinctively that locking up a child and torturing them is the greatest evil someone can commit.
And some of us don't even blink at the thought of God doing this to His own children, and some of us are even sick enough to scream joyously, "You are just, O Lord".
What has man done to God's good name? The thought is just too horrifying for me to even try to comprehend. I literally get sick to my stomach thinking that people believe that a loving God/Parent could do such things to His children under the guise of "His justice must be satisfied even if it means having to override His love". This kind of thing cannot make sense to anyone with a rational mind.
I can't talk anymore right now.
Yeah, I struggled with that for a long time in how could a God do such a thing especially when we didn't have the choice to be born in the first place. He gave us that breath of life obviously with a purpose to be His children. So later, I began to believe in annihilationism, but then realized after learning of universalism that annihilationism is not in agreement with God's Word.
My heart sings for you and all those who are listening to what God has "written in our hearts" under the guidance of the Holy Spirit . . . and NOT the "precepts and doctrines of men." It requires a complete lack of sincerity to rationalize away what is truly in our hearts to justify the savage and barbaric things believed about our loving God because of the "precepts and doctrines of men." God IS love, period. All we are required to do is "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't. ALL else is human vanity and hubris. God bless you, brothers.
we had this discussion over and over again and I am very much tired of it
@ thrillobyte
I can remember you, sad that you're still troubled, but you must find and check the truth on your own, don't listen to the words of mere men, I found peace on this issue which is the reason that I am no longer much active here, but the debate seems still to be going on - for over 2 years now, did I miss anything of special interest, new scientific findings or the like of that?
Digging up the bones of universalism vs ET does have its advantages in that I sometimes get very interesting links to peruse, like your Germans scientist study, which was a little deep for me as a non-scientist, but which gave me me one important piece of info, namely that Strong most likely was influenced by the Greek philosophers Plato and Aristotle when he defined aionion as "everlasting, without end". Clearly, by overwhelming evidence of innumerable scriptures, aionion can mean just about any time-frame and I think it's criminal that Strong is taken as an authority when he clearly let pagan sources influence him. Thanks for that link.
Also it led me to the link you provided to your own study "everlasting punishment - a doctrine based on the "authority" of the Greek philosophers" of March 5, 2010, which I think should be an authoritative treatise on its own merits. I greatly enjoyed reading it and have marked it for further study. Thanks much.
go back to believing that God will send 99% of humanity into eternal flames or annihilate them.
God either saves 1% (estimate of true Christ-following Christians) or He saves 100%. There is no in between. If you're happy with the idea that God could either send 100's of billions of people to the worst kind of torture imaginable or simply annihilate them out of existence, then run with it. I cannot.
How any clear-thinking person cannot see that is an absolute, unequivocal failure on God's part to make good on His promise "That the world through Him might be saved" is completely beyond my sense of reason.
My greatest objection to the logic of eternal torment is that we expect better from a God of the universe. We should expect no less than 100% success. Even .00001% failure, let alone 99% failure, would be less than perfection. I expect 100% success from a God as perfect and powerful as our God and I believe that's what Paul and the other apostles were trying to get across. I've come to believe that the 99 sheep + the 1 lost, in some mysterious way, is symbolic of 100% of humanity in Jesus' loving care.
That's what I believe. As Betsy is fond of saying........FINAL ANSWER!!!!!!!!
Beautiful post, Thrill.
I can feel the passion in your words.
God bless you, brother.
And the angel said, Behold.. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people...
I am slowly but surely starting to make my way back to universalism. It's hard to deny the message that Paul conveys in two separate epistles but tying them together makes it look very "universal". I am persuaded that Paul, indeed was a universalist--that he believed that all men would eventually be reconciled to the Father. Here are the scriptures:
"Consequently, just as Adam's one sin brings condemnation for all, so Christ's one act of righteousness brings to all justification with God and a new life. But each man in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when He comes, those who belong to Him. 24 Then comes those at the end [of the line], when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority and power."
The picture Paul paints is pretty clear: just as "all" pantas were brought under sin by Adam, so "all" pantas shall be brought to righteousness and given eternal life by Christ. But everyone in their own order: first, Christ, then His "elect", finally those at the end of the line (unsaved) who are brought under His dominion, authority and power.
The critical things to note here are that Paul uses the exact same Greek word for "all", pantas which plainly means everyone (not a select few). Also Paul ties no activity on the part of man to achieve this righteousness; it's all accomplished by Christ's redemptive work. Finally, in Corinthians "the end" telos which Strong defines as "the last in any succession or series" -- like a line of people: Christ is first in line, behind Him are His elect, and in the same line but at the back of it are the remaining people, which can only be the unsaved.
Sounds clear as crystal to me.
Now I am perfectly aware that elsewhere in Romans Paul states that belief in Christ is essential to salvation. I don't say that in this one verse Paul is trying to negate our responsibility, but I think the thrust of Paul's statement in these two verses is that all men eventually are brought under Christ's dominion and authority in their own order and in their own time, whether here on earth (the elect) or through a successions of aionions (eons) until everything God purposed to do from eternity is accomplished and God is all in all. Then comes the restitution of all things, including the new heaven and new earth where all dwell under the authority of the Father.
To me this makes God look more like the all-powerful victorious God we want to believe in, rather than the feeble failure who is at the mercy of man's free will and who must send 90% of humanity to hell because He was unable to save them. What a pitiful God the fundamentalists embrace.
I don't know where you get the "90% of humanity to hell" number from. Is that in the Bible somewhere?
Romans 5:18 - So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Throughout verses 12-21 in Romans 5, Adam's sin resulted in condemnation and death to all men (and women). I don't think there's an argument there.
But look at the terms used specifically in verse 18 - condemnation and justification. Those are judgment terms. Condemnation - we are guilty. Justification - we are innocent. These are declarations of judgments from God's courtroom.
Here's the problem for universal salvation. This justification on its own is not enough for salvation. Justification does clear the field for us to come to God without hinderence, but on its own - it does not save anyone. Why? Even though we are declared innocent, we are still unclean in ourselves. Our vessels are still dirty. Which brings me to 1 Corinthians 15.
1 Corinthians 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
This verse does not say all will be in Christ - it says in Christ all will be made alive. The "in Christ" part is what is important - because that's what changes our status from unclean to clean. The Holy Spirit comes to dwell within us, along with Christ.
1 John 5:11-12 - And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
No Son - no life - and this is the case even though all have been declared innocent through God's justification. Again, justification only cleared the field for all to come to Him freely.
The question then becomes - do all receive Christ?
I am not saying yes or no for sure - but there are verses indicating some may not receive Christ.
1 Corinthians 1:18 - For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 - For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Revelation 20:12-15 - And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
One more thing - regarding the "feeble failure" comment because some may not be saved. That is your interpretation. God does what He wants with whom He wants - as it says in the Bible. God is NEVER a failure. Just because He does not operate as YOU see fit, doesn't indicate failure.
we had this discussion over and over again and I am very much tired of it
svenM,
There is nothing that is going to prove universalism wrong when one wantonly has no intention to hear, so I can understand why one would be tired of it.
Matthew 25 is not the only time that Jesus spoke to the damnation of the unbeliever.
This OP is once again the Satanical backhanded accusation of Jesus\God via usage of human anologies. I've noticed that when such anologies are used in support of ... those who do, forget about that Jesus classifies people as two types:
children of God
children of the devil
and that he would call the later group as "dogs" (being call a dog was not a complement btw).
And those who heard him knew exactly what he meant for they responded "we are not illegimate children". I'm sure you're aware that there is another term for "illegimate children" and it sounds very much like "alabaster".
New International Version 1984
But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrathandanger.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
and to those contentious, and disobedient, indeed, to the truth, and obeying the unrighteousness -- indignation and wrath,
1 Chronicles 28:9
New International Version 1984
for the Lord searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts.
If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
for all hearts is Jehovah seeking, and every imagination of the thoughts He is understanding;
if thou dost seek Him, He is found of thee, and if thou dost forsake Him, He casteth thee off for ever.
svenM,
There is nothing that is going to prove universalism wrong when one wantonly has no intention to hear, so I can understand why one would be tired of it.
Matthew 25 is not the only time that Jesus spoke to the damnation of the unbeliever.
This OP is once again the Satanical backhanded accusation of Jesus\God via usage of human anologies. I've noticed that when such anologies are used in support of ... those who do, forget about that Jesus classifies people as two types:
children of God
children of the devil
and that he would call the later group as "dogs" (being call a dog was not a complement btw).
And those who heard him knew exactly what he meant for they responded "we are not illegimate children". I'm sure you're aware that there is another term for "illegimate children" and it sounds very much like "alabaster".
New International Version 1984
But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrathandanger.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
and to those contentious, and disobedient, indeed, to the truth, and obeying the unrighteousness -- indignation and wrath,
1 Chronicles 28:9
New International Version 1984
for the Lord searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts.
If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
for all hearts is Jehovah seeking, and every imagination of the thoughts He is understanding;
if thou dost seek Him, He is found of thee, and if thou dost forsake Him, He casteth thee off for ever.
Jesus may have called them "children of the devil" when He was on earth, but that in no way implies that He intends to let them remain "children of the devil".
"the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men."
This is not rocket science, twin. Just keep say the above enough times until the meaning starts to kick in. It will, if you let the Holy Spirit guide you.
It doesn't get any more "black and white" than this.
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