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I have a question, do you believe that all humans AND fallen angels will be saved or just humans. I ask because the word behind everlasting in Jude 1:6 is not aion, aionios or aionion but "aidios". Doesn't aidios mean everlasting?
Weymouth new testament:
"And angels those who did not keep the position originally assigned to them, but deserted their own proper abode He reserves in everlasting bonds, in darkness, in preparation for the judgement of the great day."
Young's Literal Translation:
"messengers also, those who did not keep their own principality, but did leave their proper dwelling, to a judgment of a great day, in bonds everlasting, under darkness He hath kept,"
"because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created...
and through him to reconcile the all things to himself -- having made peace through the blood of his cross -- through him, whether the things upon the earth, whether the things in the heavens. "
Aisi, that's an unambiguous statement that ALL things are reconciled. Do you believe that Jude 6 contradicts that?
My question would be why do they not believe in eternal life?
1 Cor 15: 54 and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, `The Death was swallowed up -- to victory;
I don't personally know of any Christian Universalists who don't believe that. ^^^
I have a question, do you believe that all humans AND fallen angels will be saved or just humans. I ask because the word behind everlasting in Jude 1:6 is not aion, aionios or aionion but "aidios". Doesn't aidios mean everlasting?
Weymouth new testament:
"And angels those who did not keep the position originally assigned to them, but deserted their own proper abode He reserves in everlasting bonds, in darkness, in preparation for the judgement of the great day."
Young's Literal Translation:
"messengers also, those who did not keep their own principality, but did leave their proper dwelling, to a judgment of a great day, in bonds everlasting, under darkness He hath kept,"
Of course they know that... but certianly will never draw that verse to attention because then that would be the tip of the knife that tears their drum beat.
For any UR'er would have to admit that Jesus said in Matthew 25:41 will also occure:
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, youwhoarecursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
Yuuuuup... those on the left will be sent to the same place for the devil and his angels, for the same amount of time as in Jude 1:6 .......... "aidios".
Actually, angels do not receive, have or need 'Salvation'. They are created as eternal beings, "who desire to look into (matters of Salvation)" -- (I Pet 1:12 +). People, on the other hand, have been offered Salvation and Eternal Life in relationship with the living God. Some will embrace and receive that; others will reject/rebel against God's Truth ('Without Excuse' Rom 1:18-20) ... But, then, you were asking for a UR position, not a Biblical position, thus, I should probably not be on this thread.
Of course they know that... but certianly will never draw that verse to attention because then that would be the tip of the knife that tears their drum beat.
So you believe that the Jude passage contradicts the Colossians passage.
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For any UR'er would have to admit that Jesus said in Matthew 25:41 will also occure:
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, youwhoarecursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
Yuuuuup... those on the left will be sent to the same place for the devil and his angels, for the same amount of time as in Jude 1:6 .......... "aidios".
Ah, Twin, you sure do seem enamored with the idea that Jesus wants to discard people.
I know that you, as a Lutheran, do not believe people will be judged worthy to "go to heaven" or not based on their works. Yet this passage you love so much is all about judging works that were or were not done. Twin, is everything you do a "good work"? Be honest with yourself Twin, aren't there things that you do that would be more in line with verses 44 & 45 of that text:
Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?'
Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.'
Consider this, Twin ... It is God who does good works in and through us. Surely, as a Lutheran, you agree with that. And when a Christian or anyone else doesn't minister love to others, is that God too? Of course not. That's the wrong thinking within us that doesn't respond in love to others.
It is that WRONG THINKING/NON-LOVE that the King tells to depart from him, to depart from within us.
"because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created...
and through him to reconcile the all things to himself -- having made peace through the blood of his cross -- through him, whether the things upon the earth, whether the things in the heavens. "
Aisi, that's an unambiguous statement that ALL things are reconciled. Do you believe that Jude 6 contradicts that?
well i know there are a few bibles that translate it as "perpetual" which doesn't always mean everlasting...
But beyond that i'm not sure...i'm on the fence about the whole "temporary" punishment thing...
well i know there are a few bibles that translate it as "perpetual" which doesn't always mean everlasting...
That's interesting.
Then too, how literally do you take the whole "angel" idea and also the "bonds"? Is it possible that they have a symbolic meaning? Possibly even for some spiritual law within ourselves?
If I recall, Jude draws on some apocryphal books that I, personally, would probably either take with a grain of salt, or see as allegorical.
These are just some of the things that I would take into consideration as I'm contemplating it.
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But beyond that i'm not sure...i'm on the fence about the whole "temporary" punishment thing...
So you think it's possible that Jude contradicts Colossians.
Personally, if I think 2 different passages in the bible contradict each other, I have a choice ... figure out how they fit with each other if I can. If I can't, lay aside the one that makes the least sense to me based on what I believe about the character of God who is Love. It may be that at a later time, the meaning of the passage that I put aside will be brought to light for me ... or not. I'm okay with that. You'll have to decide if you are.
My question would be why do they not believe in eternal life?
I think because the word behind eternal is "aioinon", and Hebrews 9:26 says "the end of the world/ages (aionion)...". What ends cannot be eternal, so when the aionion comes to an end they will go from having aionion life to just life (because they are immortal)
but will the wicked go from aionion punishment to just punishment is the question.
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Originally Posted by twin.spin
Of course they know that... but certianly will never draw that verse to attention because then that would be the tip of the knife that tears their drum beat.
For any UR'er would have to admit that Jesus said in Matthew 25:41 will also occure:
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, youwhoarecursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
Yuuuuup... those on the left will be sent to the same place for the devil and his angels, for the same amount of time as in Jude 1:6 .......... "aidios".
]I thought they did not believe the Greek word that is translated as Eternal really meant that[/b]. Isn't that there argument? Maybe I have missed something.
That word is not in 1 Cor 15:45, a passage which every Christian Universalist I've ever known believes to be true... that humans will "put on" incorruption and immortality (which is what mainstream Christianity equates the translated phrase "eternal life" to, even though the bible itself defines that phrase differently).
1 Cor 15: 54 and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, `The Death was swallowed up -- to victory;
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