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I am not an advocate of separation, that exists only in the minds of certain men.
2 Thess. 1:6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7] and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8] dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9]These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
I want to apologize that I left you with the idea that I said in post 60 that baptism was a requirement for salvation.
I said a requirement for 'heaven'. Sorry I wasn't more clear.- Acts 2 v 34; Matthew 11 v 11
Both those going to heaven are saved and so are the meek that will inherit the Earth are saved. -Psalm 37 vs 11,29
The meek or humble sheep of Matthew [ 25 vs 31,32 ] are 'saved' alive through the great tribulation [ Rev. 7 v 14 ]
Also, all who died before Jesus died [John 3 v 13 ] are saved if resurrected back to life on Earth.- Acts 24 v 15.
Do you believe baptism is a requirement for heaven ? - Romans 6 vs 3,4
I want to apologize that I left you with the idea that I said in post 60 that baptism was a requirement for salvation.
I said a requirement for 'heaven'. Sorry I wasn't more clear.- Acts 2 v 34; Matthew 11 v 11
That's why I also included the phrase that water baptism was not a requirement for entrance into heaven. It is not.
Quote:
Both those going to heaven are saved and so are the meek that will inherit the Earth are saved. -Psalm 37 vs 11,29
The meek or humble sheep of Matthew [ 25 vs 31,32 ] are 'saved' alive through the great tribulation [ Rev. 7 v 14 ]
Also, all who died before Jesus died [John 3 v 13 ] are saved if resurrected back to life on Earth.- Acts 24 v 15.
Be aware that not all Tribulational believers will live until the end of the Tribulation. There will be many martyrs. They are mentioned in Revelation 6:9-11 and 20:4.
Everyone gets resurrected, whether believer or unbeliever. All unbelievers will be resurrected after the end of the Millennium and cast into the lake of fire forever.
The Church gets resurrected before the Tribulation (1 Thess. 5:9; Rev 1:19 - the things which are refers to the Church Age. The things which will take place after these things [pertaining to the Church Age] refers to the Tribulation and events afterward). All Old Testament saints and Tribulational martyrs (Revelation 20:4) will be resurrected when Christ returns at the end of the Tribulation.
In the Millennium there will be both mortal man and resurrected humanity on the earth.
Quote:
Do you believe baptism is a requirement for heaven ? - Romans 6 vs 3,4
No. Water baptism is not a requirement for entrance into heaven. The reference in Rom 6:3-4 is not to water baptism, but to the baptism of the Holy Spirit which has as its purpose the placement of the Church Age believer into union with Christ (Gal. 3:27) and into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13). The baptism of the Holy Spirit is the mechanics for the formation of the church - the body of Christ - the bride of Christ. Old Testament saints are not church, but since the time of the ascension of Christ are now in heaven.
Since all this is off topic, it would be better for you to start a new thread. To persue it here risks getting posts deleted and the thread closed.
Last edited by Michael Way; 03-02-2013 at 04:52 PM..
Luke 23:43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
And as already stated, there is no punctuation in the Greek. Putting a comma in the English in order to try to disprove that Jesus told the criminal that he would be in Paradise that day is an empty argument. And of course it was future tense. Neither Jesus or the criminal had yet died. As soon as they did die, they went to Paradise.
Placing a comma in the verse noted in order to prove that Jesus was referring to that moment in time is nothing less than deception.
Reading it without any punctuation, grammatically speaking and paraphrased with quotations, it reads:
"Truly I say to you today you do not know what you are talking about."
Truly, you do not know, what you are talking about!
Placing a comma in the verse noted in order to prove that Jesus was referring to that moment in time is nothing less than deception.
Reading it without any punctuation, grammatically speaking and paraphrased with quotations, it reads:
"Truly I say to you today you do not know what you are talking about."
Truly, you do not know, what you are talking about!
You keep resisting the fact that Jesus said the the soul survives the death of the body (Matthew 10:28). This means that there has to be a place for the soul to go. In Old Testament times that place was one of the compartments of Hades.
Jesus said to the criminal as recorded in Luke 23:43, And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."
The reading 'I say to you today...' as opposed to 'I say to you, today...' is redundant. 'I say' is already present tense and it would be unnecessary to add 'today' to that phrase.
Jesus' story of Lazarus and the rich man portrayed an after death reality in that in Old Testament times both the righteous and the unrighteous went to different parts of Hades. Abraham's Bosom was another name for Paradise, which at that time was one of the compartments of Hades. Jewish tradition during the intertestamental period mentioned Abraham's Bosom. 4 Maccabees 13:17 '17 For if we so die, Abraham and Isaac and Jacob will welcome us, and all the fathers will praise us." 4 Maccabees 13 "Since, then, the seven brothers despised sufferings even unto death, everyone must..." NRSA - Online Bible Study
The simple fact of the matter is, that while there are those who deny that Jesus promised the criminal that he would be with Him in Paradise that very day, Jesus made it clear that the soul does not die with the body. That means the soul has to go somewhere. And that somewhere prior to the resurrection and ascension of Christ was one of the compartments of Hades.
You keep resisting the fact that Jesus said the the soul survives the death of the body (Matthew 10:28). This means that there has to be a place for the soul to go. In Old Testament times that place was one of the compartments of Hades.
Jesus said to the criminal as recorded in Luke 23:43, And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."
The reading 'I say to you today...' as opposed to 'I say to you, today...' is redundant. 'I say' is already present tense and it would be unnecessary to add 'today' to that phrase.
Jesus' story of Lazarus and the rich man portrayed an after death reality in that in Old Testament times both the righteous and the unrighteous went to different parts of Hades. Abraham's Bosom was another name for Paradise, which at that time was one of the compartments of Hades. Jewish tradition during the intertestamental period mentioned Abraham's Bosom. 4 Maccabees 13:17 '17 For if we so die, Abraham and Isaac and Jacob will welcome us, and all the fathers will praise us." 4 Maccabees 13 "Since, then, the seven brothers despised sufferings even unto death, everyone must..." NRSA - Online Bible Study
The simple fact of the matter is, that while there are those who deny that Jesus promised the criminal that he would be with Him in Paradise that very day, Jesus made it clear that the soul does not die with the body. That means the soul has to go somewhere. And that somewhere prior to the resurrection and ascension of Christ was one of the compartments of Hades.
Mike,
God breathes life into the dust of the earth and THEN man becomes a living soul. When a man dies, his spirit returns to God who gave it and he returns to dust. Do you not understand that? If the soul doesn't die with the body, what need is there for the hope of the resurrection?
For emphasis:"Truly, I say to you today on the third day I will rise again." Truly, I say to you today; you shall be with me in Paradise.
Otherwise, you invalidate the Resurrection of the dead.
It's not the body that is brought to life, it's the person themselves.
And without the breath of life, they cease to exists as that person.
And where was paradise when Adam lived but right here on Earth in the paradisaic Garden of Eden.
Jesus nor the thief went to any paradise the day they died. They went to hell [ Acts 2 vs 27,31]
Jesus was Not resurrected out of paradise, but resurrected out of the Bible's temporary hell [ sheol ] gravedom.
Since all who died before Jesus died [ John 3 v 13; Acts 2 v 34 ] do Not go to heaven, then the thief is still in death's sleep until Jesus resurrects him on a paradisaic Earth during Jesus 1000-year reign over Earth.
Death's sleep as Jesus taught at John 11 vs 11-14 [ Psalms 6 v 5; 13 v 3; 115 v 17; 146 v 4; Ecc. 9 v 5; Daniel 12 vs 2,13 ]
So, yes without the 'breath of life' one ceases to exist as that person.
God breathes life into the dust of the earth and THEN man becomes a living soul. When a man dies, his spirit returns to God who gave it and he returns to dust. Do you not understand that? If the soul doesn't die with the body, what need is there for the hope of the resurrection?
Understand this. Jesus specifically stated that the soul does not die with the body. Matthew 10:28''Do not fear those who can kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna; a refererence to being cast into the lake of fire after the end of the Millennium and the great white throne judgment. The word destroy is translated from Apollumi which does not mean cessation of existence, but refers to a state of ruination).
The passage you are referring to is Genesis 2:7. Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being (nephesh).
The word nephesh has within its range of meaning - a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion.
Adam was the first man. First his body was formed - 'yatsar' from the dust of the ground, then his soul was created by God and breathed into the body so that Adam became a living being. Once created, the soul lives forever. It does not die with the body. Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body. When the soul departs the body, the body becomes an empty house. Peter referred to his body as his earthly dwelling, and knowing of his pending death he spoke of laying aside his earthly dwelling and departing (2 Peter 1: 13-15). Peter said, ''...as long as I (the real person; the soul) am in this earthly dwelling...''
Resurrection refers to the body. Not to the soul. It is not God's intention that man spend eternity as a disembodied soul. Therefore, the body will be resurrected at the appointed time and the soul which is the real person will rejoin the body.
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