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My question concerns the "fulfilling" of the OT by the NT. I quite often read "the old law wasn't abolished but was fulfilled.."
What does that even mean? To "fulfill" is to "make full" or "put into effect". So does the NT make the OT "full" or does it "put it into effect"?
If it makes it full then doesn't that inherently mean that the foundation doesn't go away (i.e. the laws) and that the NT "fills in gaps" and doesn't override what was already there?
Do we only follow the moral 10 commandments from the OT and why? Why is the moral law the only one that remains?
If I make you a promise and then fulfill that promise, what is the condition of the original promise?
It's fulfilled. It's still there, but it has been realized. What the promise held can now be appreciated.
The Old Law showed the need for a Savior. Jesus fulfilled that 'showing' if you will, and saved those who believe in Him.
I don't know if you've read the thread on graven images, but, unfortunately, I led us down this same road. And made some folks upset in the process, I'm afraid.
Here's what I posted there, edited out a couple of parts:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207
I can only assume you posted it trying to validify the Old Testament law. I'm not saying that it isn't worthy to be valued and to try and discern it's application to our lives but I'm also a firm believer that my salvation isn't tied to a set of rules and regulations. My salvation is tied to the blood of Jesus Christ and quite clearly a new covenant was established by Jesus.
Trying to figure out if I've accidentally broken one of the ten commandments does exactly what the devil wants to do: Distract me from my love for God and my service for others. Jesus said the WHOLE LAW can be summed up by this phrase: Love God, love people. That's the 'rules' I have to follow. Other than that, I set my eyes on Jesus and try and make Kingdom impact. Splitting hairs on the intricacies of a set of laws that Christ fulfilled is, in my opinon a waste of time.
Question: If I make you a promise and then fulfill that promise, what is the condition of the aforementioned promise?
It's still there, it's still valid, but it is fulfilled. It's something you should be grateful of that I accomplished what the promise was established for.
That's the application of the old law to the new covenant. Jesus is perfect, the Old Law was imperfect. Need scripture for that?
Here's just one:
If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come—one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law. He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. For it is declared:
"You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek."
The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God. Hebrews 7:11-19
I won't hijack your thread by talking any further about the Old Law. I just think, as Christians, we need to focus more on the things Christ commanded us to focus on.
Having said that, please don't misinterpret what I'm saying to be that's it's OK to disobey the 10 commandments, I'm not saying that at all. If I 'Love God' I won't worship graven images. If I 'Love people' I won't steal or commit adultery etc.
I may be hyper-sensitive to this because I have been exposed to quite a bit of legalism and that, my friends, is the height of 'graven images', putting 'other gods before God' and putting the traditions of man in front of the commandments of God and thereby, as Christ Jesus said, 'nullify the Word of God.'
And then I posted this, just tonight before I saw this thread or kaykay's new 'legalism' thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207
I feel compelled to clarify my statements in this thread.
I have no issue with the 10 commandments.
I try and adhere to each one of them. But according to Romans the law was established to show us what sin is. That's all the law is good for. To show us our need for a Savior, Jesus Christ.
Look, there's an argument to be made that me (ALPHA) and yhwhshalomjr(YHWH) are taking the Lord's name in vain by our very screen names. Are we ready to really look at the law in our lives and come under it? If we try and put ourselves under the law, we will fail miserably.
The Bible teaches us that 'who the Son sets free, is free indeed'.
I'm not trying to whack anyone over the head and it isn't like I've got a house full of German shepherd figurines that I cherish. As far as my conviction right now, I don't have any graven images that would put me in violation of this commandment. That might change, but right now I feel OK in this area.
That being said, if Jesus wasn't a liar, if I look at another woman with lust, I've committed adultery. If I hate my brother, I've committed murder. Jesus raised the standard in our lives, not lowered it.
The Old Testament and it's law do have an application to our lives. But if we get distracted by these details that Christ set us free from, we'll miss feeding the hungry, standing with the broken, and leading the down troden to a victorious place.
That's all I'm saying. Let Jesus break those chains and let's look to Him, not back at the law.
Of course it's OK to discuss these things and I'm sorry if I've taken this legalism thing too far. It just hurts me that someone could be out there saying 'Oh my, Precious Moments trinkets might have God mad at me.' No one will ever convince me of that. Unless that person has elevated these material things to a position higher than the Lord Almighty.
Thanks for this thread big thirsty, I personally feel like if Christians could really grasp this issue, maybe what we show the world wouldn't be so contradictory and hypocritical.
Alpha, I thought your posts regarding the law and legalism were excellent btw.
Bigthirsty-
The book of Galations tells us a lot about the law and it's relationship to the New Covenant. It's a fairly short book and very helpful to understand the original purpose of the Law etc. It doesn't necessarily answer all the questions in your OP but it does clarify a lot.
Alpha.. Sorry I would have quoted you but you had a big post.
Jesus states that he fulfills the laws or the prophets and not a promise..
Am I interpreting Matthew 5:17-20 incorrectly?
I think it's still the same idea though, big thirsty. I need to find that scripture from Romans that talks about what the law was established for. That without it we wouldn't know what sin is.
I mean, it's kinda like our laws now, if we didn't have a law against speeding, we wouldn't know speeding was against the law.
I'll try and find the scripture I'm thinking of and post it.
How about you? You've stated before that you consider yourself a Christian, what do you believe about this subject? Or are you asking trying to figure out what you believe?
Alpha, I thought your posts regarding the law and legalism were excellent btw.
Bigthirsty-
The book of Galations tells us a lot about the law and it's relationship to the New Covenant. It's a fairly short book and very helpful to understand the original purpose of the Law etc. It doesn't necessarily answer all the questions in your OP but it does clarify a lot.
Galatians. Hmmm.
I think I'll read that for tomorrow morning's reading.
I think it's Romans 7:7 you are looking for, Alpha. The dh is nagging about my CD involvement so I have to get off now before he starts saying I'm addicted! LOL! Who, me? addicted to CD? Perish the thought!
I think it's still the same idea though, big thirsty. I need to find that scripture from Romans that talks about what the law was established for. That without it we wouldn't know what sin is.
I mean, it's kinda like our laws now, if we didn't have a law against speeding, we wouldn't know speeding was against the law.
I'll try and find the scripture I'm thinking of and post it.
How about you? You've stated before that you consider yourself a Christian, what do you believe about this subject? Or are you asking trying to figure out what you believe?
Just curious.
Forgive me if this gets .. well elementary.
On the one hand you have Jesus speaking directly in Matthew 5:17-20 and on the other hand you have a letter from Paul.
All things being equal I'd choose the words of Jesus over the writings of Paul. That doesn't mean I literally follow the laws of the OT. I'm just saying that in regards to this topic it would make more sense to follow the actual words of Jesus compared to the writings of Paul. (Getting late and my mind is getting tired so if what I just typed doesn't make sense I'll clarify tomorrow)
Concerning my faith.. I think I've made it fairly well known that I'm a fairly liberal Christian if I had to compare myself to others and I honestly don't have a clue regarding the place I should hold the OT.
I feel like "Jesus fulfilling the promise" is so esoteric that it's more a convenient explanation than a black and white explanation. Does that make sense? I'm don't disagree with your explanation.. I just don't fully buy it 100%.
I don't have an issue with views like yours.. The only difficult thing for me to understand is..
Matthew 5:17-20 is from the word of Jesus
Galatians and Romans were from the word of man (however inspired)
but its late.. and I'll re-read this post tomorrow to see if what I just typed makes any sense whatsoever..
The OT God speaks personally to his prophets, while the in the NT the prophets were only 'inspired' by God.
The OT God taught his people through hrash punishment, while the NT God, if you believe that Christ = God, teaches through example.
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The book of Galations
