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Here and now for all to see I confess to you I was once a Universalist. No, I did not have the nice fancy name or the terms, but I had the thoughts. I used terms like organized religon and divine love. I failed to note obvious contradictions in religous systems, because I failed to place them under serious examination. I did not understand that it is not the similarities to Buddhism, Shinto, and the five pillars of Islam, but the difference that defines my book. Like many I mocked the Bible as myth and fairy tales, yet claimed enlightenment in myself. I intermixed democracy and christianity like a spider's web. Oh how easy it is to fail in these thoughts and how much more challenging it is to know Christ!
Thank The Lord God Jesus Christ for revealing Truth to me and removing such false ideas from my life! This is my confession.
First I would give you a quote from David Wells and the legacy of Enlightenment that bears down on Christians. It is the shift from modernity to post-modernity. It was the root of my sins.
"It is not that the elements of the evangelical creeds have vanished, they have not. The fact that they are professed, however does not necessarily mean that the structure of the historic Protestant faith is still intact. The reason, quite simply, is that while these items of belief are professed, they are being removed from the center of evangelical life where they defined what life was, and they are now being relegated to the periphery where their power to define what evangelical life should be is lost. It is evangelicial practice rather than evangelical profession that reveals the change."
Consider this Christians. As a direct result of this it is the ideas of divine judgement and hell that have been removed, while more suitable easy to digest things like divine love are inserted. While we have taught the love of Christ as we should, we have failed to teach the Holyness of God which gave us the need for Christ. Instead of handing out a Bible we hand out little books of the New Testament. It has been going on for years. Is it any wonder why you now contend with such things as divine love. It was and still is a critical error that we as Christians created.
From my root in sin the tree trunk of my life sprouted. What I list below sums up my life before Christ and many others not in Christeven know. Consider this quote from Karl Marx.
"He who controls the definitions controls the movement."
This country is moving headlong into socialism. We no longed want to be responsible for what we are, but we want others to be responsible for us. Our government, our political parties, and our very communities are based more on socialism then The Lord God Jesus Christ. And thus we have a view that becomes increasingly popular, but farther from the truth. Below are some key points to this movement.
Human nature: I truly believed in the goodness of man and held he was to good for God to damn. This is where it all begins. The belief in ourself over the belief of God. Some would contend this not to be true, but find one scripture that confirms man is good. You can misquote one, but that does not make it anymore true.
Pluralistic culture: This can be traced to placing democracy above God. When Ronald Reagen stood at the Berlin Wall and called on Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev to tear down the wall his very speech exhaulted democracy. From that point we have had more wars over democracy than anything else. Our democracy based on moral order than began a rapid decay into all being equal and that no truth is better than an another. In essence Postmodernism. Now we have many who haved moved from Christocentrism to Theocentrism. Now we have Christians who claim Christ in a weak and unknowing way or not at all, and then believe a Holy God can reconcile anything because it would be evil of him not to. This was by far one of my greatest sins.
Lack of Biblical authority: This speaks for itself. In todays modern information systems, data is shared at a faster rate everyday. In essence you have people who speak on what they do not know. One of the most common excuses I used as many do is, "I moved beyond what I learned in sunday school." As if Sunday School was the culmination of anything in the Bible. Then off that very basis a house is built with a foundation in sand. Then when the waters come how will it stand?
The Vastness of the Missionary Task: Did you know that in 1980 it was estimated that 98.5% of the world had the Bible in hand or could readily access it. This before the modern internet as we know it. How ironic considering this began the Reagan era and the final push of democracy over the world. People see the world as to big for all to hear the word and thus conclude that it can not be done. They can not accept God has a plan such as Christianity and do so on the basis of it not being fair to man.
Then as my tree of deceit was firm I spread my branches and all the wordly little birds took shelter in my deceit. They accepted scripture as myth just as I did, thay wanted all to be reconciled on the goodness of man as I did, they misquoted scripture as I did. The list goes on and on.
Yet then truth came to me in waves of which I can only give a few short statements. For these i will call upon Ezekiel and Isaiah. Notice many call it myth, but this is God talking to the very Jews many condemn in their idea of divine love.
Let us look below to Ezekiel 14 first. Here it is the Jews who are under judgement and Christians I give you a parallel in this. As much as it is a encouragement to Ezekiel in impending judgement it is to be one to you also.
22 "Yet behold, there shall be left in it a remnant who will be brought out, both sons and daughters; surely they will come out to you, and you will see their ways and their doings. Then you will be comforted concerning disaster that I have brought upon Jerusalem, all that I have brought upon it.
23 "And they will comfort you when you see their ways and their doings; and you shall know that I have done nothing without cause that I have done it," says the Lord God.
Or even to Isaiah 57. Again speaking to Jews, but Christians notice the parallel. One must be contrite first. What does it mean to be contrite? Can one be humble claiming divine love and not be contrite as to need a Saviour in The Lord God Jesus Christ? Notice the end as well. Will there be indeed peace for the wicked?
15 For this says the High and Lofty One Who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: "I dwell in the high and holy place, with him who has a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
16 For I will not contend forever no will I always be angry; for the spirit would fail before Me, and the souls which I have made.
17 For the iniquity of his covetousness I was angry and struck him; I hid and was angry, and he went on backsliding in his heart.
18 I have seen his ways, and will heal him; I will also lead him, and restore comforts to him and to his mourners.
19 "I create the fruit of the lips: peace, peace to him who is far off and to him who is near," says the Lord, "And I will heal him."
20 But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.
21 "There is no peace," says my God, "for the wicked."
This is what I found in Jesus Christ. Of course I study the New Testament, but to understand Him I must understand his holiness. Are not the words above of a Holy God?
Yet let us look a bit deeper into the love of man under Universalism. I will include some scripture on these points.
First it removes Inspiration from scripture. It declares scripture to be a myth in some areas, but then uses it to justify their view. If scripture is divine inspired than all of it must be true, but if scripture is not divinely inspired than none of it is true. A working light bulb can not be on if the switch is off or in reverse off if the switch is on. You either accept on or the other. To do anything less is to bring it down to man and then you judge yourself as true. (2 Tim 3: 16-17; 2 Peter 1:29)
Second it elevates Love to such a level that it removes wrath and judgement. It makes them virtually disappear as if God could not be holy in having them. (1 Peter 1:16)
Third it can not reason an Antimony. This comes in the words Transcendence and Immanence. God is transcendent in that He is above, beyond, outside, all that He has made. There is a distinction between the Creator and His creatures. His creation in fact is not God.
Yet, He is also Immanent. He is omnipresent in that he is inside and outside of all his creation. He is the source of power and beauty and none can exist with Him.
In short if you accept one or the other you are more a deist or pantheistic. It is not Christian. It fails to reason the Antimony of our faith that both are need truths that hold each other together, yet can not contradict each other. Here are a few other antimonies to consider. Most Christians don't even realize this and even today I think on it.
God is 3 and God is 1
Jesus is both God and man
God is omnipotent, yet created man with free will.
These three basic reasons enough are sins I have commited in my path towards Universalism. I was not a church goer or even a Bible reader. I felt that the sum of my belief in God started with what I learned in Sunday School and spread out from there with my own knowledge or truth. How wrong I was! Once I began truly studying scripture and trusting in Christ things began to change. While it may not seem it, this is my confession to you. I was once Universal, but now I am of The Lord God Jesus Christ. I know scripture is Divinely Inspired. I was contrite and repented in sorrow of my sins. Only then did He place His Holy Spirit upon me and how great it is! Yet, in parting let me ask you questions I asked myself before I became a Christian. Consider these things carefully. They are not eay questions to be quickly skimmed over.
If Universalism is right, why witness of repentance and faith in Christ? Even Christians wont need him.
If Universalism is right, why have missions to spread the word of Christ? If Christians dont need him, why even spread the gospel, the very good news of Christ. No one will need him.
If Universalism is right, why did Jesus Christ speak more on hell than love? Count out the verses there are more on hell then love.
If Universalism is right, why does Matthew 7: 13-14 and Matthew 25:46 say not all will go to Heaven? Or why does Matthew 25:41 speak of everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels. As someone so eloquently pointed out these are red words, which means Christ spoke them. How could they be denied?
If Universalism is right, what is the second death? Revelation 2:11 calls it a hurt, but then we go to Revelation 20:14 where Death and Hades are cast into a lake of fire. It is literally called the second death.
Do not be so quick to use the words myth and fairy tale. If you do you are not Christian. Approach The Lord God Jesus Christ with a contrite spirit and a humble heart. Profess the sorrow of your sins. The time is coming. Each second of the day that ticks by is a step closer to his return. Do not be left behind as goats when the Sheperd comes. He will take His sheep, but the goats will be the food of wolves. Consider Christianity for what it is, the very difference of Jesus Christ, not it's similarity to man. Anyone can claim a god, but only Christians can claim The Lord God Jesus Christ fully through which Christians receive the Holy Spirit, the very breath of God and His scriptures, His very Word!
I truly appreciate your open and honest willingness to give your testimony and I see your humility and love for God in every post that you share. You are an encouragement to me and I am blessed that you came to this forum.
Thankyou for taking the time in your day to share this with us. I know you are up to your head in studies and homework and have family, etc. And I also know that it is for the Love of Christ that you share what you share and in such great depth.
May God Bless you for you faithfulness and your testimony.
Your friend in Christ, may you be encouraged...
Raelyn
I want nothing more than for each of us to be open to His leading, and I believe that those of us who confess Jesus as our savior are being shown things still unfolding, and we may "wobble" in what we see as His plans for the ages - but there's no "wobble" in God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73
If Universalism is right, why witness of repentance and faith in Christ? Even Christians wont need him.
If Universalism is right, why have missions to spread the word of Christ? If Christians dont need him, why even spread the gospel, the very good news of Christ. No one will need him.
This is not what I believe - Jesus is the Way, Truth, and Life. The Father said He would be inquired of what He will do, so we ask.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73
If Universalism is right, why did Jesus Christ speak more on hell than love? Count out the verses there are more on hell then love.
Jesus was looking at His followers as He warned them, the same ones He told to pick up their cross - there is fire ahead for all who follow Him, for God Himself is a consuming fire.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73
If Universalism is right, why does Matthew 7: 13-14 and Matthew 25:46 say not all will go to Heaven? Or why does Matthew 25:41 speak of everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels. As someone so eloquently pointed out these are red words, which means Christ spoke them. How could they be denied?
No way can anyone deny the truth - but do we then ignore the rest of the New Testament? Paul then explained the separation of the carnal nature from the spirit of man - and the flesh is what burns.
Most of me will not enter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73
If Universalism is right, what is the second death? Revelation 2:11 calls it a hurt, but then we go to Revelation 20:14 where Death and Hades are cast into a lake of fire. It is literally called the second death.
More support for what I'm saying. The first death is not the end of our natural days, but the death in Adam - he sinned, we all died. The furnace is the next one. Anyway, death is the last enemy to be destroyed - God: all in all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73
Do not be so quick to use the words myth and fairy tale. If you do you are not Christian. Approach The Lord God Jesus Christ with a contrite spirit and a humble heart. Profess the sorrow of your sins. The time is coming. Each second of the day that ticks by is a step closer to his return. Do not be left behind as goats when the Sheperd comes. He will take His sheep, but the goats will be the food of wolves. Consider Christianity for what it is, the very difference of Jesus Christ, not it's similarity to man. Anyone can claim a god, but only Christians can claim The Lord God Jesus Christ fully through which Christians receive the Holy Spirit, the very breath of God and His scriptures, His very Word!
I truly appreciate your open and honest willingness to give your testimony and I see your humility and love for God in every post that you share. You are an encouragement to me and I am blessed that you came to this forum.
Thankyou for taking the time in your day to share this with us. I know you are up to your head in studies and homework and have family, etc. And I also know that it is for the Love of Christ that you share what you share and in such great depth.
May God Bless you for you faithfulness and your testimony.
Your friend in Christ, may you be encouraged...
Raelyn
I definitely second what Raelyn said Aschultz....what an AWESOME post!! This encourages me so much because it is extremely disheartening to see the lies of universalism taking over this forum and elsewhere. Praise be to God that he removed the blinders and you have found the TRUTH!!
Here and now for all to see I confess to you I was once a Universalist. No, I did not have the nice fancy name or the terms, but I had the thoughts.
Your post reveals that your thoughts were more like a Unitarian Univeralist. That is quite different than Christian universalists who believe that Christ is the only way to salvation.
Quote:
Like many I mocked the Bible as myth and fairy tales, yet claimed enlightenment in myself.
The scriptures are not myth. They are 100% God breathed.
Quote:
Human nature: I truly believed in the goodness of man and held he was to good for God to damn.
I don't believe man is good. I believe there is none good.
Quote:
The belief in ourself over the belief of God.
I believe no man can be saved apart from God. We can do nothing of ourselves. Including follow Christ or believe that God is. Blessed are the eyes that see.
Quote:
thay wanted all to be reconciled on the goodness of man as I did
I've never met anyone who beleives God reconciles all because of the goodness of man.
Quote:
One must be contrite first. What does it mean to be contrite? Can one be humble claiming divine love and not be contrite as to need a Saviour in The Lord God Jesus Christ?
We must be contrite & humble in seeing that we are sinners and need Christ to save us from our sins. No one is saved apart from that.
Quote:
Will there be indeed peace for the wicked?
No. When God judges the wicked they have no peace. God has a purpose behind that.
Quote:
First it removes Inspiration from scripture.
Spriture is 100% God breathed. Must of us do believe that aion and aionion are mistranslated in most bibles. But that's a translation issue. Many bibles do not translated as "everlasting".
Quote:
It declares scripture to be a myth in some areas, but then uses it to justify their view.
The scripture can not be broken.
Quote:
If scripture is divine inspired than all of it must be true, but if scripture is not divinely inspired than none of it is true. A working light bulb can not be on if the switch is off or in reverse off if the switch is on. You either accept on or the other. To do anything less is to bring it down to man and then you judge yourself as true. (2 Tim 3: 16-17; 2 Peter 1:29)
100% true.
Quote:
Second it elevates Love to such a level that it removes wrath and judgement.
No it does not. God's wrath and judgment are real. All who do not follow Christ, do not do what He says will experience God's wrath. Including those who "accepted" Him or called Him "Lord".
Quote:
It makes them virtually disappear as if God could not be holy in having them. (1 Peter 1:16)
Only in the universalism you believed in.
Quote:
Third it can not reason an Antimony. This comes in the words Transcendence and Immanence. God is transcendent in that He is above, beyond, outside, all that He has made. There is a distinction between the Creator and His creatures. His creation in fact is not God.
We are commanded by Christ to be like God in our treatment of
a) those who curse us (we must bless them)
b) our enemies (we must love them)
c) perfect as the Father is perfect.
That doesn't mean God gives sinners a free pass, loving them to death. That would actually be unloving. "Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell." God does not show favor to the wicked.
Quote:
If Universalism is right, why witness of repentance and faith in Christ? Even Christians wont need him.
Because repetance and faith in Christ are necessary for salvation.
Quote:
If Universalism is right, why have missions to spread the word of Christ? If Christians dont need him, why even spread the gospel, the very good news of Christ. No one will need him.
We do need Him.
Quote:
If Universalism is right, why did Jesus Christ speak more on hell than love?
He spoke more on love than hell.
Quote:
Count out the verses there are more on hell then love.
I did: Love 311, Hell 64
Quote:
If Universalism is right, why does Matthew 7: 13-14 and Matthew 25:46 say not all will go to Heaven?
Matthew 7:13-14 says few are finding the narrow gate, which is true. It does not says few will ever find it. The verb is present tense, not future tense. If Jesus ways saying "few will ever find it" then why did God say that the number of saved will be "as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered." Does that sound like few to you?
Quote:
Or why does Matthew 25:41 speak of everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels. As someone so eloquently pointed out these are red words, which means Christ spoke them. How could they be denied?
Yes, as translated that verse does refute universalism. I believe it's translated incorrectly. ET is based almost 100% on the translation of aion and aionion. Many bibles do not translate that way.
If aionion means "everlasting" with regard to punishment, then why in the Septuagint are there exmaples of temporary "everlasting" punishments??
And Why did Jesus say that people who did not follow Him will receive MANY or FEW stripes when He comes, when it's really infinite stripes in everlasting torment??
Quote:
If Universalism is right, what is the second death? Revelation 2:11 calls it a hurt, but then we go to Revelation 20:14 where Death and Hades are cast into a lake of fire. It is literally called the second death.
The second death is God's judgment and punishment by which death and hades are destroyed. If the second death means the wicked sitting within it can not repent and turn to Christ seeking him with all their heart, then why do the gates to the city remain open aftern the holy city descends from heaven? Compare Rev 21:23-26 with Isaiah 60. Remember, God's mercy endures "forever" (through the ages) exactly as long as His judgment of the wicked endures.
Quote:
Do not be so quick to use the words myth and fairy tale. If you do you are not Christian. Approach The Lord God Jesus Christ with a contrite spirit and a humble heart. Profess the sorrow of your sins.
I definitely second what Raelyn said Aschultz....what an AWESOME post!! This encourages me so much because it is extremely disheartening to see the lies of universalism taking over this forum and elsewhere. Praise be to God that he removed the blinders and you have found the TRUTH!!
This post made my day. Thank you.
The Bible does clearly state that in the end times there would be false teachers and the lover of men instead of God. I cannot get the Scriptures right now cause I have to go but will post some later.
ASchultz obviously found truth so that means he was believing in a lie.. I Trust that he is a man of God and I believe his testimony. My Spirit bares witness to the Truth.
I definitely second what Raelyn said Aschultz....what an AWESOME post!! This encourages me so much because it is extremely disheartening to see the lies of universalism taking over this forum and elsewhere. Praise be to God that he removed the blinders and you have found the TRUTH!!
This post made my day. Thank you.
What he described is not what we believe.
It would be like saying Islam and Chritainity are the same because both agree on that Christ existed.
Your post reveals that your thoughts were more like a Unitarian Univeralist. That is quite different than Christian universalists who believe that Christ is the only way to salvation.
The scriptures are not myth. They are 100% God breathed.
I don't believe man is good. I believe there is none good.
I believe no man can be saved apart from God. We can do nothing of ourselves. Including follow Christ or believe that God is. Blessed are the eyes that see.
I've never met anyone who beleives God reconciles all because of the goodness of man.
We must be contrite & humble in seeing that we are sinners and need Christ to save us from our sins. No one is saved apart from that.
No. When God judges the wicked they have no peace. God has a purpose behind that.
Spriture is 100% God breathed. Must of us do believe that aion and aionion are mistranslated in most bibles. But that's a translation issue. Many bibles do not translated as "everlasting".
The scripture can not be broken.
100% true.
No it does not. God's wrath and judgment are real. All who do not follow Christ, do not do what He says will experience God's wrath. Including those who "accepted" Him or called Him "Lord".
Only in the universalism you believed in.
We are commanded by Christ to be like God in our treatment of
a) those who curse us (we must bless them)
b) our enemies (we must love them)
c) perfect as the Father is perfect.
That doesn't mean God gives sinners a free pass, loving them to death. That would actually be unloving. "Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell." God does not show favor to the wicked.
Because repetance and faith in Christ are necessary for salvation.
We do need Him.
He spoke more on love than hell.
I did: Love 311, Hell 64
Matthew 7:13-14 says few are finding the narrow gate, which is true. It does not says few will ever find it. The verb is present tense, not future tense. If Jesus ways saying "few will ever find it" then why did God say that the number of saved will be "as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered." Does that sound like few to you?
Yes, as translated that verse does refute universalism. I believe it's translated incorrectly. ET is based almost 100% on the translation of aion and aionion. Many bibles do not translate that way.
If aionion means "everlasting" with regard to punishment, then why in the Septuagint are there exmaples of temporary "everlasting" punishments??
And Why did Jesus say that people who did not follow Him will receive MANY or FEW stripes when He comes, when it's really infinite stripes in everlasting torment??
The second death is God's judgment and punishment by which death and hades are destroyed. If the second death means the wicked sitting within it can not repent and turn to Christ seeking him with all their heart, then why do the gates to the city remain open aftern the holy city descends from heaven? Compare Rev 21:23-26 with Isaiah 60. Remember, God's mercy endures "forever" (through the ages) exactly as long as His judgment of the wicked endures.
Amen.
In betwen flights so keeping it short..... I think so many are TRULY walking with Jesus to God.
The Bible does clearly state that in the end times there would be false teachers and the lover of men instead of God. I cannot get the Scriptures right now cause I have to go but will post some later.
ASchultz obviously found truth so that means he was believing in a lie.. I Trust that he is a man of God and I believe his testimony. My Spirit bares witness to the Truth.
It would be like saying Islam and Chritainity are the same because both agree on that Christ existed.
It is apparent through the reading of many of these posts that there is no clear belief in the Universalist's system or religion because one says one thing and the other says another. You guys really need to create another book and title it "The Truth According to Universalists".
I am not trying to be sarcastic but with all honestly it is the most confusing and contradicting belief that I have ever heard of
And please...no more explanations. I really have heard enough. I am not going to through out pearls any longer.
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