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Leviticus 21:18
NIV
No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed;
This refers mostly to the act of presenting sacrifices and offerings on the Altar, but the entire chapter is interesting. First ,we see directions against defiling a dead person (necrophilia), which is permitted if the deceased is one's virgin sister or a close family member.
Then we see commands of God not to allow anyone who has any deformity to approach to the altar of God. Which is odd, because I was always told as a child that "god" made everyone, but anyway, the chapter goes on to list various deformities by which one would be unwelcomed by God.
SO, if you are blind, if you are missing a limb, unable to walk without a walker or confined to a wheelchair, YOU are not welcomed by God.
If you grow up in a church, and you are a tither, a saintly person, a model citizen, if you are a deacon or an elder, and suddenly, you fall prey to arthritis or suffer a stroke, you are NO LONGER WELCOME in church.
Sad but true, if something is wrong with you, then god wants nothing to do with you. amen to that.
Leviticus 21:18
NIV
No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed;
This refers mostly to the act of presenting sacrifices and offerings on the Altar, but the entire chapter is interesting. First ,we see directions against defiling a dead person (necrophilia), which is permitted if the deceased is one's virgin sister or a close family member.
Then we see commands of God not to allow anyone who has any deformity to approach to the altar of God. Which is odd, because I was always told as a child that "god" made everyone, but anyway, the chapter goes on to list various deformities by which one would be unwelcomed by God.
SO, if you are blind, if you are missing a limb, unable to walk without a walker or confined to a wheelchair, YOU are not welcomed by God.
If you grow up in a church, and you are a tither, a saintly person, a model citizen, if you are a deacon or an elder, and suddenly, you fall prey to arthritis or suffer a stroke, you are NO LONGER WELCOME in church.
Sad but true, if something is wrong with you, then god wants nothing to do with you. amen to that.
This is only the tip of the iceberg of the savage and barbaric mindset of our ignorant ancient ancestors, KingCat. They would go out of their way to mistreat these poor souls because they did not want to be kinder to them than God was!! This belief in such a heinous God is a barbarity and idiocy that has not only been retained . . . but revered as a sign of faith. It is mind-boggling.
Leviticus 21:18
NIV
No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed;
This refers mostly to the act of presenting sacrifices and offerings on the Altar, but the entire chapter is interesting. First ,we see directions against defiling a dead person (necrophilia), which is permitted if the deceased is one's virgin sister or a close family member.
Then we see commands of God not to allow anyone who has any deformity to approach to the altar of God. Which is odd, because I was always told as a child that "god" made everyone, but anyway, the chapter goes on to list various deformities by which one would be unwelcomed by God.
SO, if you are blind, if you are missing a limb, unable to walk without a walker or confined to a wheelchair, YOU are not welcomed by God.
If you grow up in a church, and you are a tither, a saintly person, a model citizen, if you are a deacon or an elder, and suddenly, you fall prey to arthritis or suffer a stroke, you are NO LONGER WELCOME in church.
Sad but true, if something is wrong with you, then god wants nothing to do with you. amen to that.
You post out of lack of knowledge. Lev. 21:16-21 lists 12 physical qualifications for PRIESTS in the Old Testament days. As a means of comparison, 52 times God commanded these same requirements regarding the animals sacrificed by the priests for all the people. Christ, the fulfillment of that which was typical in the law, was Himself, without blemish (1 Peter 1:19). Jesus' church will be presented to Him that way at the "catching up" of the saints (Eph. 5:27). The reason behind the physical qualifications of the priests who offer sacrifices was this: no man of the seed of priests who had any body infirmity or imperfection could make sacrifices. For this man to do so would have glorified defeat, sickness, disease, weakness, failure, and physical infirmity to some extent which would have been out of harmony with the type of sacrifice Jesus represented- the perfect and spotless lamb of God. God loves everyone even those of us who have physical defects. He is no respecter of persons.
Nice try.
Leviticus 21:18
NIV
No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed;
This refers mostly to the act of presenting sacrifices and offerings on the Altar, but the entire chapter is interesting. First ,we see directions against defiling a dead person (necrophilia), which is permitted if the deceased is one's virgin sister or a close family member.
Then we see commands of God not to allow anyone who has any deformity to approach to the altar of God. Which is odd, because I was always told as a child that "god" made everyone, but anyway, the chapter goes on to list various deformities by which one would be unwelcomed by God.
SO, if you are blind, if you are missing a limb, unable to walk without a walker or confined to a wheelchair, YOU are not welcomed by God.
If you grow up in a church, and you are a tither, a saintly person, a model citizen, if you are a deacon or an elder, and suddenly, you fall prey to arthritis or suffer a stroke, you are NO LONGER WELCOME in church.
Sad but true, if something is wrong with you, then god wants nothing to do with you. amen to that.
This is not the context. In the old testament God wanted unblemished priests to symbolize the perfect atonement covenant He would establish with Jesus. Jesus Himself was offered up as a sacrifice for the sins of the world. Jesus, the Son of God, was perfect and His blood is eternal making the sacrifice eternally valuable in the eyes of God, making an eternal atonement for the sins of humanity. The old testament is nothing more than pictures and images of the perfect covenant God would establish with Jesus. God does not reject anyone because of deformities in their body.
"The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise." Prov. 11:30
The Christian who wins souls for God's Kingdom is producing eternal fruit and eternal life!!
[SIZE=2][SIZE=2]BRING SOMEONE TO HEAVEN WITH YOU
Brothers and sisters, one day soon, you will stand before Jesus in Heaven. What a glorious beginning
to eternity for you! You will see Him face-to-face, as He really is, just as His Word tells you. You both will
be grinning from ear to ear! The joy you both feel will be almost too much to bear!!
This is your Lord and Savior; the one who took your punishment instead of you. The punishment YOU
deserve. The one that freely and voluntarily paid the price for your sins. He throws His arms wide open to
receive and hug and kiss you. You see the scars on His wrists and forehead. He says. "Well done my good and
faithful servant! Enter into the joy of the Lord!" You have longed to hear those words for years!
You walk through the gates of Heaven, gates made of a single, giant, beautiful pearl. The creator of the universe,
the King of Kings and Lord of Lords ushers you in. A great and everlasting peace and joy fills your soul!
You realize your eternal home will be wherever Jesus is from now on!! No more sorrow, pain, sickness or
disease.
You see before you 2 great, golden arches (no, not McDonalds!) Your Christian relatives and friends who have gone before you, stand in a line to greet you under one of these magnificent arches. How wonderful to see them all again! You have missed them terribly, but you knew one day you would see them again. That day is today! They pass through the arch one by one. You hug and kiss them all. "This is the greatest day of my life!!" you hear yourself say. Written on the arch are the words "relatives, family and loved-ones". The second arch stands empty, right next to the first one. No-one is in line there. Written on the second arch are the words, "Those I brought with me to heaven."
Will you stand embarrassed, if that line is empty? Will you mourn over lost opportunities missed
down here on earth? Will you have to feel guilty before your personal Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
because you were too embarrassed, shy, selfish or scared to share the love of God and the good
news of salvation through Jesus to others? Or will your line by full? Will it stretch around the corner and
out of sight, full of various people of all nationalities and tribes, all dressed differently; all waiting for a
chance to hug and kiss you, and meet you for the first time perhaps. Will someone be able to say to you,
"Oh thank you, thank-you!! The only reason I'm here is because of you! Because you cared enough about
me, a total stranger, to share the gospel of Jesus Christ with me!!"
Do you realize that when Jesus said in Mark 16:15, "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel
to every creature," that it was a command not just merely a polite request or suggestion. YOU have been
commissioned to do this, not just a few random others!
Don't be satisfied only with your own salvation. Step out of the box. Step out of your comfort zone and
grow in Christ, my brother and sister! Be obedient in this vital area. Matt. 9:37- "The harvest truly is
plenteous, but the laborers are few;"
Time is short; Jesus is coming soon. Don't regret opportunities lost in these last days, my
brothers and sisters.
Adam and Eve did not know evil until they ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This changed the very nature of humanity. This is not behavior modification we are talking about here. The word "sin" in the bible is used as a noun very many times. A noun is not an action. Humans have been infected with sin (noun). Why do you think Jesus is giving us new bodies in the rapture? These bodies are doomed to die and cannot live forever. No sense in going to eternity with a mortal body.
I don't see how any of this has to do with God's supposed need to punish, so I won't address it.
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It makes perfect sense to punish 1 to save many if you love them.
But this has nothing to do with whether or not God needs to punish.
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And since God is a God of justice you cannot leave sin unpunished.
You have yet to explain why this is necessary. First you acknowledged that God does not NEED to punish sin, and then you brought up the idea that God needed to carry through on the threat He supposedly made in the Garden of Eden. But, as I explained, you have to read a threat into that story. God didn't say, "I will kill you", He simply said, "You will die,": natural consequence.
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But since God is a God of love He cannot punish each individual for their sins but to only those who reject the atonement God made for us. Rejecting atonement is the same as eating the fruit God forbade all over again symbolically. Its saying no to the salvation He gave us through Jesus. Its saying no to God's way.
The difference between you and I is I believe in the God who sent His Son Jesus to die for our sins. I believe in atonement. You believe in a God that seemingly has no justice at all.
Do you realize that you still haven't a given a reason to believe that God needs to punish? You haven't given a reason to believe that punishment is "justice" for the God who tells us that eye for an eye isn't His idea but that love your enemy is. You haven't explained how punishment is necessary for God, when we are told that to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect, we should forgive when someone asks us to, and no suggestion that we need to see them punished first.
I don't see how any of this has to do with God's supposed need to punish, so I won't address it.
But this has nothing to do with whether or not God needs to punish.
You have yet to explain why this is necessary. First you acknowledged that God does not NEED to punish sin, and then you brought up the idea that God needed to carry through on the threat He supposedly made in the Garden of Eden. But, as I explained, you have to read a threat into that story. God didn't say, "I will kill you", He simply said, "You will die,": natural consequence.
Do you realize that you still haven't a given a reason to believe that God needs to punish? You haven't given a reason to believe that punishment is "justice" for the God who tells us that eye for an eye isn't His idea but that love your enemy is. You haven't explained how punishment is necessary for God, when we are told that to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect, we should forgive when someone asks us to, and no suggestion that we need to see them punished first.
Great post, Pleroo. If this doesn't penetrate the indoctrination . . . nothing can.
I don't see how any of this has to do with God's supposed need to punish, so I won't address it.
But this has nothing to do with whether or not God needs to punish.
You have yet to explain why this is necessary. First you acknowledged that God does not NEED to punish sin, and then you brought up the idea that God needed to carry through on the threat He supposedly made in the Garden of Eden. But, as I explained, you have to read a threat into that story. God didn't say, "I will kill you", He simply said, "You will die,": natural consequence.
Do you realize that you still haven't a given a reason to believe that God needs to punish? You haven't given a reason to believe that punishment is "justice" for the God who tells us that eye for an eye isn't His idea but that love your enemy is. You haven't explained how punishment is necessary for God, when we are told that to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect, we should forgive when someone asks us to, and no suggestion that we need to see them punished first.
I've given you the reason, as I said, you do not believe God is a just God. And when I said God can choose not to punish sin, I also told you why He wouldn't. Your replies to me are turning into nothing more than attacks against my belief. You do not care why I believe the way I do you simply care about backing up your belief by trying to call out others on theirs. Me and you do not believe in the same God. How can I ever tell you why God needs to punish sin when we don't believe in the same God? I believe in the God of the bible. You believe in a God that has been ripped out of context. I don't even know why the books of the disciples and the old testament to you are not even connected to God. You find it so hard to believe God cannot be a just God when He has the sovereign power to forgive. Yes God can forgive at His choosing, but God is not some hollow being with no feelings or no conscious. He has a conscious. He has feelings. He is a just God and if God does not punish evil (not the evil doer) then where is the justice? How can God's mind be at peace knowing He let every evil thing done in the world just slip away unpunished? All of Heaven and creation would be witness to God's failure at keeping His own creation and word in balance. As I said, God can leave sin unpunished, but it will never satisfy His conscious.
I believe in the God of the gospel. The God that punishes sin, not the sinner. The God who loved us so much that He did not spare even His own Son from the cross. And this is very serious with God. The bible makes it clear that ANYONE who does not accept the once and for all sacrifice of Jesus will not inherit eternal life. You're trusting your own efforts to save you when the bible says there is no good in our flesh and we need a savior.
I've given you the reason, as I said, you do not believe God is a just God. And when I said God can choose not to punish sin, I also told you why He wouldn't. Your replies to me are turning into nothing more than attacks against my belief. You do not care why I believe the way I do you simply care about backing up your belief by trying to call out others on theirs. Me and you do not believe in the same God. How can I ever tell you why God needs to punish sin when we don't believe in the same God? I believe in the God of the bible. You believe in a God that has been ripped out of context. I don't even know why the books of the disciples and the old testament to you are not even connected to God. You find it so hard to believe God cannot be a just God when He has the sovereign power to forgive. Yes God can forgive at His choosing, but God is not some hollow being with no feelings or no conscious. He has a conscious. He has feelings. He is a just God and if God does not punish evil (not the evil doer) then where is the justice? How can God's mind be at peace knowing He let every evil thing done in the world just slip away unpunished? All of Heaven and creation would be witness to God's failure at keeping His own creation and word in balance. As I said, God can leave sin unpunished, but it will never satisfy His conscious.
I believe in the God of the gospel. The God that punishes sin, not the sinner. The God who loved us so much that He did not spare even His own Son from the cross. And this is very serious with God. The bible makes it clear that ANYONE who does not accept the once and for all sacrifice of Jesus will not inherit eternal life. You're trusting your own efforts to save you when the bible says there is no good in our flesh and we need a savior.
Yes, I suppose I'm attacking your belief in the sense that I'm asking you to provide an explanation of the statements you are making, at the same time explaining why I believe that your statements don't add up. I know it can seem like our beliefs define us so when those beliefs are questioned, it can feel really personal, like WE are being attacked and not just our beliefs. I'm sorry about that, but I don't know how to avoid that on a discussion board, other than to assure you that it isn't my intent to attack you, just as I assume you are not attacking me by disagreeing with MY beliefs. K?
First, do you have any response to the things I've already said regarding the Garden of Eden, and the NT passages I brought up regarding forgiveness? Can you see how those passages don't support what you are saying?
Second, you bring up the idea that the universe can't be "balanced" if sin isn't punished. How does punishment balance the universe? Tit for tat? That goes against the understanding that God's ways are higher than our "eye for an eye" mentality, don't you think?
Also, you've said a couple of times now that God can't be at peace if He doesn't punish sin. And yet, one of the aspects of the fruit of God's Spirit IS peace. If the peace that God has is dependent upon "tit for tat, eye for an eye" then that is the quality of the peace we are receiving from Him. That's not peace at all ... that's the kind of "peace" that the world offers, not God.
Lastly, this isn't the first time that you've said something along these lines: "You're trusting your own efforts to save you when the bible says there is no good in our flesh and we need a savior." I've been pretty clear that that is not the case, and I'm wondering why you're resorting to saying that again?
I believe in the God of the gospel. The God that punishes sin, not the sinner.
Oh, one more thing. "God punishes sin, not the sinner." I believe that, actually, but I don't think you do. Sin -- not God -- punishes the sinner. And I believe that God is DESTROYING sin and death in us. He's saving us from our sin. That, as I see it, is real justice, and it is the way He is "balancing the Universe".
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