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That doesn't answer the question Twin. You're saying that God will condemn someone to eternal torment for telling others that God will save all people, which in and of itself doesn't make sense. You believe that proclaiming that Jesus is the savior of all is a sin ... but all sins, according to you, have been forgiven for those who believe in Jesus as their savior -- that would include the "sin" of preaching that Jesus is the savior of all.
But, that's not even the question being discussed at the moment. It's about what Christian Universalists BELIEVE: that God will save all people. WHY would God condemn them to eternal hell for believing that, Twin?
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
Thanks for making the point about UR .... UR finally preaches that God rewards everybody eventually the same whether ONE DOES NOT BELIEVE IN GOD ... OR ONE BELIEVES IN GOD.
You cannot break the "reward/punish" mindset, Pleroo. You will not get an answer. There are three distinct stages of psychological response that we typically "grow" through as we mature. Unfortunately, some of us stagnate at one or the other stage and are unable to relate to the others. The first and earliest stage is "reward.punish" in which our actions and responses to the environment are conditioned upon the outcomes they engender (positive or negative). This is similar to the animal obedience training stage or "schoolmaster" stage our savage ancestors (as barely more than animals) required.
The second stage is the one most adults eventually respond to. It is the "identification" stage. We identify role models that we admire and we try to emulate them in our own behaviors and lives. We typically stay in this stage most of our adult life . . . but often change role models as we age.The final stage is one not all achieve. It is "Internalization." This stage is the one in which we have internalized the various values and principles we have learned and acquired during our lives and make them our own. We will adhere to them regardless what the consequences are from society or the environment.. This is also the stage Jesus epitomized. You cannot adequately explain the "Jesus" stage (Internalization) understanding to a "reward/punish" stage thinker.
You cannot break the "reward/punish" mindset, Pleroo. You will not get an answer. There are three distinct stages of psychological response that we typically "grow" through as we mature. Unfortunately, some of us stagnate at one or the other stage and are unable to relate to the others. The first and earliest stage is "reward.punish" in which our actions and responses to the environment are conditioned upon the outcomes they engender (positive or negative). This is similar to the animal obedience training stage or "schoolmaster" stage our savage ancestors (as barely more than animals) required.
The second stage is the one most adults eventually respond to. It is the "identification" stage. We identify role models that we admire and we try to emulate them in our own behaviors and lives. We typically stay in this stage most of our adult life . . . but often change role models as we age.The final stage is one not all achieve. It is "Internalization." This stage is the one in which we have internalized the various values and principles we have learned and acquired during our lives and make them our own. We will adhere to them regardless what the consequences are from society or the environment.. This is also the stage Jesus epitomized. You cannot adequately explain the "Jesus" stage (Internalization) understanding to a "reward/punish" stage thinker.
Twin wrote
Post #92 Those who promote UR will be damned .... so says God.
Maybe God will allow Twin at the judgment to stand beside one of the two Mormon missionaries in Montreal who said to me, "At the judgment as you are being cast into hell, I will point my finger at you and say I told you so for not believing the truth."
I believe the Bible teaches that eventually everyone will be saved.
It is my great joy to promote UR the same way as E.G. Jones and Anthony J. Borrello promote UR without the slightest concern about being damned.
Jones wrote "In 1Tim. 4:9-11 we are told that the living God `is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of those who believe,' and with this 1Tim. 2: 4-6 concurs. Many seek to limit it to believers, but they overlook the significance of the double statement. That there is a special salvation for believers is plainly stated, but this does not limit the other part of the statement, rather does it emphasize it. The salvation of believers is a special work; they are a special class in the `all mankind.' God's will for mankind is salvation, not as an experimental salvation toying with the will and choice of men, but as their Disposer – God. My dear brethren, let us embrace this glorious truth which God has revealed for us. Let it so become a part of us that our lives will be reflecting it. Let it fill our hearts with the love of God and His glorious Son. Let us be rendering praise to the living God, the universal Creator and Reconciler, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
`To Him be glory for the eons! Amen!' "
E.G. Jones (another UR promoter who, Twin says, is destined to eternal damnation)
REDEMPTION IN TWO PARTS God's Plan Of The Ages; The Purpose Of God In This Age; Redemption In Two Parts; As In Adam - So In Christ; Every Man In His Own Order; All Things In Subjection; God All In All
SOONER OR LATER GOD ALL IN ALL - Anthony J. Borrello “As hostile and objectionable our dear brethren may be, there are answers and explanations for every argument and/or insinuation presented against the undeniable fact, That God indeed is a God ‘Who will have all men to be saved, and come into a knowledge of the truth (1Tim. 2:4). As greatly as man and their religious attempt to fight this utterly dynamic evangel (good news), God shall eventually be All in all (1Cor. 15:28)." "But God is in no hurry. He has specific eons, and administrations within the eons, to fulfill His universal purpose and intention of universal reconciliation. All came out of Christ, including Adam. Consequently all shall be restored by and through Christ, ‘yet each in his own class’ (1Cor. 15:23)." When clouds of confusion gather regarding God’s plan for mankind, and despair come showering down upon our studies,turn to God’s word originally rendered, then, like a searchlight in the darkness of night, His love, and His light of understanding will surely beam forth. God will not allow any to be eternally lost. He is a loving Creator, working out His purpose for the universe, Who will get love from all in return, so that He can and will be ‘ALL in all,’ to all, ‘later.’†(yet another UR promoter who, Twin says, is destined to eternal damnation)
Twin wrote
Post #92 Those who promote UR will be damned .... so says God.
Maybe God will allow Twin at the judgment to stand beside one of the two Mormon missionaries in Montreal who said to me, "At the judgment as you are being cast into hell, I will point my finger at you and say I told you so for not believing the truth."
I believe the Bible teaches that eventually everyone will be saved.
It is my great joy to promote UR the same way as E.G. Jones and Anthony J. Borrello promote UR without the slightest concern about being damned.
Jones wrote "In 1Tim. 4:9-11 we are told that the living God `is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of those who believe,' and with this 1Tim. 2: 4-6 concurs. Many seek to limit it to believers, but they overlook the significance of the double statement. That there is a special salvation for believers is plainly stated, but this does not limit the other part of the statement, rather does it emphasize it. The salvation of believers is a special work; they are a special class in the `all mankind.' God's will for mankind is salvation, not as an experimental salvation toying with the will and choice of men, but as their Disposer – God. My dear brethren, let us embrace this glorious truth which God has revealed for us. Let it so become a part of us that our lives will be reflecting it. Let it fill our hearts with the love of God and His glorious Son. Let us be rendering praise to the living God, the universal Creator and Reconciler, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
`To Him be glory for the eons! Amen!' "
E.G. Jones (another UR promoter who, Twin says, is destined to eternal damnation)
REDEMPTION IN TWO PARTS God's Plan Of The Ages; The Purpose Of God In This Age; Redemption In Two Parts; As In Adam - So In Christ; Every Man In His Own Order; All Things In Subjection; God All In All
SOONER OR LATER GOD ALL IN ALL - Anthony J. Borrello “As hostile and objectionable our dear brethren may be, there are answers and explanations for every argument and/or insinuation presented against the undeniable fact, That God indeed is a God ‘Who will have all men to be saved, and come into a knowledge of the truth (1Tim. 2:4). As greatly as man and their religious attempt to fight this utterly dynamic evangel (good news), God shall eventually be All in all (1Cor. 15:28)." "But God is in no hurry. He has specific eons, and administrations within the eons, to fulfill His universal purpose and intention of universal reconciliation. All came out of Christ, including Adam. Consequently all shall be restored by and through Christ, ‘yet each in his own class’ (1Cor. 15:23)." When clouds of confusion gather regarding God’s plan for mankind, and despair come showering down upon our studies,turn to God’s word originally rendered, then, like a searchlight in the darkness of night, His love, and His light of understanding will surely beam forth. God will not allow any to be eternally lost. He is a loving Creator, working out His purpose for the universe, Who will get love from all in return, so that He can and will be ‘ALL in all,’ to all, ‘later.’†(yet another UR promoter who, Twin says, is destined to eternal damnation)
Pilgrim Tutt,your posts are a blessing to this forum.
Twin wrote
Post #92 Those who promote UR will be damned .... so says God.
Maybe God will allow Twin at the judgment to stand beside one of the two Mormon missionaries in Montreal who said to me, "At the judgment as you are being cast into hell, I will point my finger at you and say I told you so for not believing the truth."
I believe the Bible teaches that eventually everyone will be saved.
So once again Rodger proves that UR finally preaches that God rewards everybody eventually the same whether ONE DOES NOT BELIEVE IN GOD ... OR ONE BELIEVES IN GOD.
Mormons do not confess the Triune God, therefore either they'll have to hope in your false gospel or awaken to the truth of Galations 1:5-6 with you standing in between them when judged by God.
UR is a false gospel hope to anybody who doesn't believe in the only one true God (who is triune).
UR is a false gospel hope to anybody who rejects Jesus as God
UR is a false gospel hope to anybody who attempts to please God via obedience to the law \ works
UR is a false gospel hope to anybody who proclaims false gospels
UR is a false gospel hope beyond the time of grace which God gives (those on the left of Jesus)
UR is the practice of idolitry by allowing to form God to thine own image to appease what you seem think is fair \ just
Twin wrote
Post #92 Those who promote UR will be damned .... so says God.
Maybe God will allow Twin at the judgment to stand beside one of the two Mormon missionaries in Montreal who said to me, "At the judgment as you are being cast into hell, I will point my finger at you and say I told you so for not believing the truth."
I believe the Bible teaches that eventually everyone will be saved.
I'm not disputing what you claim this Mormon missionary said to you, but I do want to make it clear that he was expressing his own opinion and was not teaching Mormon doctrine. Mormonism teaches what I would describe as "99.9999% universal salvation." No Mormon who knows his religion would tell anyone who didn't accept the message of Mormonism that he was going to be "cast into hell," because that is absolutely, positively, definitely NOT what we believe.
Thanks for making the point about UR .... UR finally preaches that God rewards everybody eventually the same whether ONE DOES NOT BELIEVE IN GOD ... OR ONE BELIEVES IN GOD.
You totally misconstrued the point of my post. People who don't believe in a personal creator don't fear any stated consequences for disobeying something/someone they don't believe exists. Do you fear the consequences that Muslims promote for disobeying their deity, Allah? I rather doubt it. Because you don't believe the things in the Koran are true. They (the atheists also don't expect there to be any rewards or punishments in an afterlife (pleasant or otherwise) for the selfish or selfless acts they do. I imagine there will be many surprised and perhaps even disappointed atheists when they find that they are not yet done with life. What we, as UR believers, believe will happen to them has no bearing whatsoever on how they live their life. Nor does what hell believers preach determine their behavior. They just plain don't care what we say one way or another. They ridicule either position. They certainly don't relax if they hear that they will ONLY experience an agelong correction for rebellion. Neither do they tremble when they hear a fiery hell awaits them for their lack of faith in Christ.
NOBODY will be made immortal before they come to faith. You just believe that the only 'chance' to believe occurs in this dimension. I don't think there is any 'chance.' No one CAN believe until the Holy Spirit convinces you. And it usually takes about a minute, if that long. How long before Paul believed after he was knocked to the ground? When the light shines, there is no doubting. There might be good salesmen who deliver a great sales pitch that almost makes you believe, you might think you're wrestling with the idea, but when the Holy Spirit grabs you, there is no delay, no weighing the pros and cons, you just BELIEVE because you can't not believe.
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