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You totally misconstrued the point of my post. People who don't believe in a personal creator don't fear any stated consequences for disobeying something/someone they don't believe exists. Do you fear the consequences that Muslims promote for disobeying their deity, Allah? I rather doubt it. Because you don't believe the things in the Koran are true. They (the atheists also don't expect there to be any rewards or punishments in an afterlife (pleasant or otherwise) for the selfish or selfless acts they do. I imagine there will be many surprised and perhaps even disappointed atheists when they find that they are not yet done with life. What we, as UR believers, believe will happen to them has no bearing whatsoever on how they live their life. Nor does what hell believers preach determine their behavior. They just plain don't care what we say one way or another. They ridicule either position. They certainly don't relax if they hear that they will ONLY experience an agelong correction for rebellion. Neither do they tremble when they hear a fiery hell awaits them for their lack of faith in Christ.
NOBODY will be made immortal before they come to faith. You just believe that the only 'chance' to believe occurs in this dimension. I don't think there is any 'chance.' No one CAN believe until the Holy Spirit convinces you. And it usually takes about a minute, if that long. How long before Paul believed after he was knocked to the ground? When the light shines, there is no doubting. There might be good salesmen who deliver a great sales pitch that almost makes you believe, you might think you're wrestling with the idea, but when the Holy Spirit grabs you, there is no delay, no weighing the pros and cons, you just BELIEVE because you can't not believe.
Interesting on how you've phrased this -
What we, as UR believers, believe will happen to them has no bearing whatsoever on how they live
their life. Nor does what hell believers preach determine their behavior. They just plain don't care
what we say one way or another. -
yet God says that how a person lives their life does has a bearing.
I also find interesting how you've phrased this -
You just believe that the only 'chance' to believe occurs in this dimension. I don't think there is any 'chance.'
people do not live once then judged... judged to see if they missed something the first time around so as God then gets things straightened out. People are given a 'time of grace' ... not a 'chance'. The time of grace for all people ends at death.
a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—
those who have done what is good will rise to live,
and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
To proclaim those who have done what is evil will rise to have the same final eventual outcome as those who have done what is good will rise to live is contradicting the truth. It is a false gospel hope beyond the time of grace which God gives (those on the left of Jesus).
And what determines why one rises to live vs. why one rises to be condemned ?
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,
that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life...
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life,
but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
The non-elect will miss out on life eonian i.e. life pertaining to the ages.
But both life eonian and kolasis eonian will come to an end and eternity will continue with everyone saved from everything from which they need to be saved.
A snippet from THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – DR. LOYAL F. HURLEY
“Only as one sees God’s Plan of the Ages do they see the beauty of God’s Program for the redemption of the race.
Heb. 11:3 should read, “Through faith we understand that the ages were planned by the Word of God.” The ages will collectively end. A literal translation of Heb. 9:26 is, ‘But now, once for all, with a view to the end of the ages, has He been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.’
Throughout the eons there is sin and evil, condemnation and death. At the end of the eons all will be justified (Rom. 5:18,19), and all will be reconciled through Christ’s blood (Col. 1:20).
Was Paul negligent in his instructions to the jailer?
Should he have said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, as long as you don't believe that eventually Jesus is going to save everyone, because if you believe that, you will never be saved"?
Is it true that all these thousands of believers on Jesus were not, and never will be saved? Universalism: The Prevailing Doctrine Of the Christian ChurchDuring Its First Five-Hundred Years http://hellbusters.8m.com/updcontents.html And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
E. G. Jones wrote "In 1Tim. 4:9-11 we are told that the living God `is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of those who believe,' and with this 1Tim. 2: 4-6 concurs. Many seek to limit it to believers, but they overlook the significance of the double statement. That there is a special salvation for believers is plainly stated, but this does not limit the other part of the statement, rather does it emphasize it. The salvation of believers is a special work; they are a special class in the `all mankind.' God's will for mankind is salvation, not as an experimental salvation toying with the will and choice of men, but as their Disposer – God. My dear brethren, let us embrace this glorious truth which God has revealed for us. Let it so become a part of us that our lives will be reflecting it. Let it fill our hearts with the love of God and His glorious Son. Let us be rendering praise to the living God, the universal Creator and Reconciler, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. `To Him be glory for the eons! Amen!' "
Last edited by rodgertutt; 05-04-2013 at 04:40 AM..
Twin, you just will not admit that it is possible that judgment is NOT eternal. Eternal suffering for a finite time of rebellion is NOT justice by any standards.
There ARE rewards for sacrifice and living for Christ in this age. It does matter how you live your life. But how does that compute to NEVER being made perfect. Will you be prideful and condescending in rulership? It seems God had harsh words and consequences toward Nebuchadnezzar for thinking he had ANYTHING to do with his being in power and he was made to eat grass like a beast of the field. If we are granted anything it is according to God's mercy and kindness You can't boast about it because it was by God's mercy and election that anyone CAN live for Christ and receive the rewards, ruling and reigning with Christ, UNTIL all are subjected to God and Christ relinquishes his reign and priesthood to our Father. When all are subjected to Him and live in Him, there is no need for a priesthood or rulers, only the Father who sustains all and shines light upon the universe. When that will occur, God knows.
There are AGES yet before God's plan is accomplished...his plan to create a family in His image. After that, I am confident that there will be a new set of ages to accomplish a new goal and we will most assuredly play a large part in that.
It is my opinion that you gravely err on how much freedom God gives us as to our destiny. He is the author and finisher of EVERYTHING.
Even you, Twin, though you can't envision it now, will be satisfied and give God the glory when the whole of His creation stand perfected before Him exalting Him with loud hosannahs. Those who need to weep will weep, and I think those who care for them will weep also, but it will last only for the night and joy will come in the morning.
It is necessary for now to have opposition to make us stronger. Thanks, Twin, for being that opposition.
Twin, you just will not admit that it is possible that judgment is NOT eternal. Eternal suffering for a finite time of rebellion is NOT justice by any standards.
Your standards ....
And that is where this leads to eventually, UR is the practice of idolatry by allowing to form God to thine own image to appease what you deem to think is fair \ just.
Your standards ....
And that is where this leads to eventually, UR is the practice of idolatry by allowing to form God to thine own image to appease what you deem to think is fair \ just.
No twin, eternally punishing someone is the standard you think is fair and just. Could you ever imagine yourself even consenting to the eternal punishment of your fellow man, never mind being the one actually dishing it out ?. The ways of the god you believe in are not higher than ours, but most definetly lower.
In respect to images, there is no greater false image than that of a man with a beard up in the clouds somewhere and for some a man with a beard hanging on a cross. God the Savior is Spirit. In him(Jesus Christ) was the fullness of God.
Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer.
Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?
If you knew Jesus Christ in you, you would know the doctrine of eternal punishment is not of God.
Your standards ....
And that is where this leads to eventually, UR is the practice of idolatry by allowing to form God to thine own image to appease what you deem to think is fair \ just.
According to YOUR standards eternal damnation is just, what is the difference between you and ScarletWren? Are not those who promote eternal damnation mere men just as universalists?
If eternal damnation is true, why do we not find it in the Pentateuch, the Prophets and the Psalms?
According to YOUR standards eternal damnation is just, what is the difference between you and ScarletWren? Are not those who promote eternal damnation mere men just as universalists?
If eternal damnation is true, why do we not find it in the Pentateuch, the Prophets and the Psalms?
We do find it... in the prophets and psalms the word forever is used with punishment \ judgement
Deuteronomy 29:20
The Lord will never be willing to forgive them; his wrath and zeal will burn against them.
All the curses written in this book will fall on them, and the Lord will blot out their names from under heaven.
1 Samuel 3:13 For I told him that I would judge his family forever because of the sin he knew about; his sons blasphemed God, and he failed to restrain them. 1 Chronicles 28:9 ...for the Lord searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought.
If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.
Psalm 69:23 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever.
Psalm 81:15 Those who hate the Lord would cringe before him, and their punishment would last forever.
Psalm 92:7 that though the wicked spring up like grass and all evildoers flourish, they will be destroyed forever.
You cited a strange translation, especially in Psalm 81:15, I will look at this more thoroughly tomorrow, I admit that the OT overwhelmingly suggests the annihilation of the wicked, e.g. Psalm 92:7 but this destruction might be also be understood as a temporal death penalty.
We do find it... in the prophets and psalms the word forever is used with punishment \ judgement
Deuteronomy 29:20
The Lord will never be willing to forgive them; his wrath and zeal will burn against them.
All the curses written in this book will fall on them, and the Lord will blot out their names from under heaven.
1 Samuel 3:13For I told him that I would judge his family forever because of the sin he knew about; his sons blasphemed God, and he failed to restrain them.
1 Chronicles 28:9 ...for the Lord searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought.
If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.
Psalm 69:23May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever.
Psalm 81:15 Those who hate the Lord would cringe before him, and their punishment would last forever.
Psalm 92:7 that though the wicked spring up like grass and all evildoers flourish, they will be destroyed forever.
The meaning of words that have been translated as “eternal”, “forever”, “incurable” in the scriptures
Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude
7)--until--God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom"
Ez. 16:53-55).
Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer.
30:12)-until--the Lord "will restore health" and heal
her wounds (Jer. 30:17).
The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9)-until--
Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez.
16:53).
An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the
Lord's congregation "forever"-until--the tenth
generation (Deut. 23:3):
Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were
"everlasting", that is -until-- they "were shattered"
Hab. 3 3:6).
The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting"
priesthood (Ex. 40:15), that is-until-it was
superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews
7:14-18).
Many translations of the Bible inform us that God
would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings
8:13), that is,--until the Temple was destroyed.
The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant"
(Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the
first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians
3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).
God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah
"forever"-until--the Lord delivers him from the large
fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17);
Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer.
25:27)-until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of
Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam"
(Jer. 49:39).
"Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4, 42)-until--the Lord
"will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47).
Israel's judgment lasts "forever"-until--the Spirit is
poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).
So, narrow is the way to life and few find it-until--
His church confiscates the "strong man's" booty,
setting the captives free so God becomes all in all
(Isa. 61, Luke 11:21-22, Matt. 7:13; 16:18, 1 Cor.
15:24-28).
The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us
that a bondslave was to serve his master "forever"
(Exodus 21:6), that is,--until--his death.
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Paul negligent?
