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Old 05-20-2013, 09:21 AM
 
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I hear most Christians quote this all the time. Especially in the political setting. We quote it so much, you would almost think "Life begins at conception" was a verse somewhere in the Bible. Yet, not only is it not a verse in the Bible, I have strong reasons to say it's not true at all. Life does not begin at conception. Here are my reasons why.... (Also, this may be somewhat of a long read, but I'll try to shorten it. For those of you who want to fully respond here, please read and think about everything I say here in the OP)


1. While the quote is not a verse in Scripture, I know of another one that is. The life of a creature is in the blood. So if we are coming from a Biblical perspective in our arguments against things like abortion, we should use what is in Scripture versus making up our own sayings. The reason why I say this is because we will be criticized concerning our background. I don't want to try to explain something that is not even in the Scriptures. So it's the blood we should be focusing on, concerning when life begins. We could begin our scientific argument from this standpoint. Not only to end abortions, but to help women who had sex, to make the best choice in order to not get pregnant. I'm talking contraception.

Now to give a little more background with life beginning when blood is present....

We know God formed Adam from the dust/dirt of the ground. However, even though Adam's body was formed, he didn't become a living being until God breathed into him the breath of life. Which is probably a reference to God giving Adam his spirit, and linking it to his body, but don't quote me there. The point is Adam's life didn't begin until God breathed into him, even though his body was already there. This is like a picture of conception in a way. The newly formed cell is the basis (when the egg and sperm cell fuse together) of our bodies. Yet even though this is the beginning of the formation of our bodies, our lives don't begin here. When God gave Adam life, at that point I imagine there was blood flowing in Adam's body. Interestingly enough, through science we know it's the blood that carries oxygen throughout our entire body. So we can see the connection between blood, oxygen, God breathing into Adam, and how the Bible refers to someone dying as "breathing their last".

Ultimately, from a Christian standpoint, life really begins when God gives us our spirit and soul, which are closely linked to one another. So the question is when does God put those things into us? The answer is we don't know specifically. Yet Biblically speaking, once there is blood in this newly formed cell (this probably happens once the cell undergoes it's final transformation into the fetus), then the spirit is there.




2. There are certain situations where if life really does begin at conception (considering the Christian standpoint of life includes the introduction of the spirit), you would have to say some people have two spirits within them or many people are living with the same spirit. In genetics, you sometimes have a case where two cells will conceive instead of just one. The medical term is called a human chimera. During the pregnancy process, these two conceived cells fuse together into one, and the child that results will have two sets of DNA. (Look up and read about Lydia Fairchild. She had to go to court because her children didn't relate to part of her) So if we are to say life begins at conception, a person such as Lydia Fairchild is two lives in one body. She literally has two spirits and two souls.

Next, we know identical twins are the result of a zygote breaking up into two copies of itself. If life began at conception, twins have the exact same spirit, or copies of the same life. So again, life cannot begin at conception, and the Bible doesn't even argue that it does.




3. Now this last reason is more food for thought than an actual argument against life beginning at conception. The reason being is that a lot of babies don't make it through the whole birth process, and are stillborn. Yet interestingly to note, even though an egg cell fuses with a sperm cell, there's no guarantee it will find it's way to the uterine wall to begin the pregnancy stage. There are probably more conceived cells that don't make it to the uterine wall, than do. If life begins at conception, there have probably been hundreds of billions of deaths that no one has ever shed a tear for. That we never even knew about.



Those are my reasons why life does not begin at conception, but that the life of an individual is in the blood. Once there is blood present, then we know life has begun. Christians shouldn't be against things like contraception, especially the morning after pill. (Which I think has been shown to be pretty effective) You are not killing someone with those things. Now I'm not saying we should go out and have relations to our hearts content, but if one does have relations and aren't ready to care for children and not wanting children, let's make sure a child doesn't result from those actions. Abortion would be taking a life, even if they don't know it. (And most people are against late-term abortion, even your most ardent pro-choicer. Interestingly enough however with that being the case, where do you officially draw the line, because the fetusis just about fully formed within weeks of conception?)
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Old 05-20-2013, 10:45 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Does Life Begin at Conception?

Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Notice that the terms "I" and "me" are connected with "from the time my mother conceived"

Personal pronouns are hard to get away from if life is involved.
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:26 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Does Life Begin at Conception?

Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Notice that the terms "I" and "me" are connected with "from the time my mother conceived"

Personal pronouns are hard to get away from if life is involved.

David was saying here that he was sinful from birth. Hebrew poetry has a nack for saying the same thing twice in a different way. David's picture of conception, is actually being born by way of coming out. (Not to get to graphic here) Surely David's idea of conception wasn't the sperm and egg cell fusing together. Those are scientific terms.
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:46 AM
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
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There is no debate at all over life exists right from the very begining. There are some seeds sitting on my desk here that I will pant in my garden. Does anyone question if those seeds are alive or not???? Of course not, it would be a stupid question really. Are those seeds already heads of lettuce? Well, no they have not developed that far yet.

So, the issue is never wether life exists or not but if that life is a unique human being at the begining of it's development and wether that life has the right not to be killed.
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Old 05-20-2013, 12:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
There is no debate at all over life exists right from the very begining. There are some seeds sitting on my desk here that I will pant in my garden. Does anyone question if those seeds are alive or not???? Of course not, it would be a stupid question really. Are those seeds already heads of lettuce? Well, no they have not developed that far yet.

So, the issue is never wether life exists or not but if that life is a unique human being at the begining of it's development and wether that life has the right not to be killed.

Remember however that life, in terms of Christianity, specifically involves the spirit of a man or woman. (As we read the body without the spirit is dead) Plants don't have spirits, they are a different kind of life. What we have concerning when life begins, Biblically, is life is in the blood. Jesus shed His life's blood for us. (Interesting to note, the blood of the fetus doesn't mix with the mother's blood. So while Jesus was in Mary's womb, His blood wasn't contaminated in any way by the blood of Adam. As we also know Jesus didn't have an earthly father) So blood is the key in determining life from a Christian standpoint.

As I mentioned with my examples in the OP, you will have a lot of problems to discuss if life begins at conception.
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Old 05-20-2013, 12:58 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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In terms of the abortion debate Lucknow comes closest to defining the cogent terms. The question in legal terms is not about "life," which is a matter of certain chemical processes in definable units, and there is no question that life is present before conception in the ovum and sperm that unite to form the unique individual. The question is about legal "person," which is a matter of legal definition that currently stands at the (biblical) "breath of life." In other words when the fetus draws breath.

To change the perception and/or the law in a secular society depends on a reasonable change to the definition of "person." Most reasonable people would not accept a fertilized ovum as a "person" having rights comparable to a newborn child. I, at least, do not accept that the difference is merely a matter of drawing breath on its own. Where in between to draw the line is a matter to be worked out, but hard liners on both ends of the debate will not allow a compromise that could save thousands of unique lives that are only classified as "late term" or even "mid term" pregnancies at this time.
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:24 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
David was saying here that he was sinful from birth. Hebrew poetry has a nack for saying the same thing twice in a different way. David's picture of conception, is actually being born by way of coming out. (Not to get to graphic here) Surely David's idea of conception wasn't the sperm and egg cell fusing together. Those are scientific terms.
One problem with that explanation.... Psalm 51:5 are scriptures which Jesus defined them as. And as such, the ultimate author and expertise who would know is God.
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:28 PM
 
Location: Florida -
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The public abortion debate is always carefully confined to emotional issues and 'declared rights' ... because it cannot stand-up to the common knowledge that a fetus is a baby, or in the light of God's plan and true Word. (a couple of scripture examples:

Ps. 139:13 - For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. (NIV)

Gen 25:22-24 - 22 But the children struggled together within her; and she said, “If it is so, why then am I this way?” So she went to inquire of the Lord. 23 The Lord said to her, “Two nations are in your womb; And two peoples will be separated from your body; And one people shall be stronger than the other; And the older shall serve the younger.” 24 When her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb. (NAS)

Jer. 1:5 - “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.” (NAS)

Job 31:15 - Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?

Luke 1:31 - And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.

Luke 1:41 - And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:28 PM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 3,722,248 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
In terms of the abortion debate Lucknow comes closest to defining the cogent terms. The question in legal terms is not about "life," which is a matter of certain chemical processes in definable units, and there is no question that life is present before conception in the ovum and sperm that unite to form the unique individual. The question is about legal "person," which is a matter of legal definition that currently stands at the (biblical) "breath of life." In other words when the fetus draws breath.

To change the perception and/or the law in a secular society depends on a reasonable change to the definition of "person." Most reasonable people would not accept a fertilized ovum as a "person" having rights comparable to a newborn child. I, at least, do not accept that the difference is merely a matter of drawing breath on its own. Where in between to draw the line is a matter to be worked out, but hard liners on both ends of the debate will not allow a compromise that could save thousands of unique lives that are only classified as "late term" or even "mid term" pregnancies at this time.
FYI:

Theol Stud. 1990 Dec;51(4):603-26.
Reflections on the moral status of the pre-embryo.
Shannon TA, Wolter AB.
PMID:11656166[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

"Given the findings of modern biology, there is no evidence for the presence of a separate ontological individual until the completion of restriction or gastrulation which occurs around three weeks after fertilization.

Entire article:

http://www.ts.mu.edu/readers/content...1.4/51.4.2.pdf

Last edited by ancient warrior; 05-20-2013 at 01:29 PM.. Reason: typo
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Old 05-20-2013, 02:42 PM
 
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The Lord God said from the Bible in Deuteronomy 30: 19............``I call heaven and the earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing, therefore choose Life, that both you and your seed may life``.............. See God says that there are curses for those who choose death ............. Like in Genesis 4: 8-12...........And Cain talked with Abel his brother, and it came to pass when they were in the field , that Cain rose up and slew him ............And the Lord said to Cain ..........``Where is Abel your brother? ``...........And he said,`` I know not, Am I my brothers keeper?``...And God said `What have you done? the voice of your brother`s blood cried to me from the ground............And now are you cursed from the earth, which has opened her mouth to receive your brothers blood from your hand ............When you till the ground it will not from now on yield to you her strength, a fugitive and a vagabond will you be in the earth``............See Cain kill his brother and God cursed him and took off Gods blessing on His life , where The first murder of Gods children came which released the curse which the devil added to his authority ............. See people can water down the fear of God and deny any spiritual curse through the natural , but Christians must pay heed.........As God has left his children who became sinful and faith in God became lax , as some of God children have short lives , Best to pay heed and resist the liberal ideas of this world ...
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