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And yet you just skim read my post and did not afford it the same courtesy you request of others. Odd that!
I did read most of it, and saw the rest as talking around the same points. I said if your interpretation is correct, then it renders Genesis useless, and you could take that same interpretation to every origin story in the world. Had I read the whole thing, I would have gave the same response.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Skim reading doesn't count . . . but we obviously disagree. If you have any real interest in rational explanations of the Bible stories . . . you would read it more diligently and think about it more. I suspect you want your magic and woo . . . or it isn't good enough to be about God. Anyone treating the Bible literally has no real interest in reason, logic or rationality.
I disagree. Christ did not come to die. He KNEW He would die at the hands of our savage ancestors BECAUSE of their ignorant and superstitious beliefs about God (that's what "they know not what they do" means, btw.). But His purpose in coming was to correct the ignorant beliefs about God and show us the Father unambiguously through His teaching, life and most especially His death. He "smote" no one despite scourging and crucifixion . . . and He forgave His torturers and murderers. There is no more obvious example of the true nature of God than that! The irony is that our savage ancestors ignored the obvious and interpreted it to agree with their ignorant and superstitious beliefs about God from the OT!! What is worse is that the religious leaders have perpetuated this ignorant distortion for over 2000 years as a sign of Faith in God.!
I am sorry I missed this post yesterday. Are you saying Jesus didn't have to die? Remember that no one took Jesus life, but He laid down His life freely. It was with purpose, and He gave His life a ransom for many. You can't twist those words to suit your own needs. I'm also guessing you don't believe Jesus spoke about Hell either, about a fire that won't be quenched? You can't ignore these verses, and you must take in everything Jesus said. Like I said before, Paul's letters are the earliest in regards to Jesus. Some say that it was Paul who really invented Christianity as we know it today (That Jesus is God, and He died to save us, etc.) Yet anyway, Paul believed in a literal Genesis. If his teachings are correct concerning Jesus, Jesus also believed in a literal Genesis.
Last edited by Heavenese; 05-31-2013 at 05:33 AM..
So He redeemed us from wickedness and purified us, yet this begs the question is a person born wicked? We could also say God created us wicked. So all of that is true, why redeem us from what He created us to be in the first place. If you believe the miracles Jesus did, Jesus healed the people from many diseases and He calmed the storm. If the history in Genesis never happened, why does God see a problem with sickness and disease, and natural disasters? Did He not create the world like this? What's the problem? It would be like me digging a very big hole in my backyard, then being angry there's a big hole in my backyard. Does that make any sense? If I'm mad at the hole, it's my fault that it's there, and the anger should be directed at myself and not the hole.
The purpose for the law as I understand, is to show us that we are sinful. That no matter how much we try to keep it, the harder we try, the more we break it. That even our very thoughts are opposed to the law.
Reread my post 18 about our conflicting wants and how "growing up" is becoming aware of the conflict and how we deal with it. Suppose once again that the world was created the way it was to provide an opportunity for us to grow up and learn the value of living in love, that God wants us to respond in love to everyone around us, to learn to submerge our immediate wants in the good of the group, what then?
Go back to thinking about law and try it from the beginning, not from a platform of doctrine and words that you have heard. I seriously doubt that Congress enacting laws is interested in showing us that we are incapable of following them perfectly.
Reread my post 18 about our conflicting wants and how "growing up" is becoming aware of the conflict and how we deal with it. Suppose once again that the world was created the way it was to provide an opportunity for us to grow up and learn the value of living in love, that God wants us to respond in love to everyone around us, to learn to submerge our immediate wants in the good of the group, what then?
Go back to thinking about law and try it from the beginning, not from a platform of doctrine and words that you have heard. I seriously doubt that Congress enacting laws is interested in showing us that we are incapable of following them perfectly.
So if what you're saying is correct, the focus seems to be about choosing others over ourself. That the community good is the best answer. This thought seems to be a pretty natural one doesn't it? By that, I mean was it really necessary for Jesus to die on the cross to teach us that? There are many atheists who are better at this attitude, than Christians who truly believe on Christ. Take a look at Bill Gates for instance. He's the quietest, wealthiest man in the country. There's no telling the amount of good he's done with his money. (I even heard, of course I don't know if it's true, that in his will he plans to give most most of his money to charities all over the country and world) He's doing all of that, and you never hear one word about it. He's doing what Jesus talked about, not sounding a trumpet when you do good. So ultimately, it seems we could come to this ultimate conclusion about community good, without the knowledge of Jesus and anything He taught. Christianity is not necessary.
Yet as you mention with that Titus verse, Jesus redeemed us from wickedness. This means without Christ, it doesn't matter what good you do, your wickedness remains. This goes to something more inherent, that you can't simply learn your way out of. This is something you have to receive, and literally be changed altogether. As I mentioned before, Paul specifically stated by Adam's disobedience, we were made sinners. So by Jesus obedience, we are made righteous. Jesus didn't just die a normal death. He actually died "our" death. He died as us, so we can live like Him.
I find it hard for there to be any other reasons for why God gave the Law. Congress enacts laws for us to have a better society. If we didn't have them, people would be free to do whatever they wanted. Their real desires would come out, no matter how good we think we are. Now God's laws were perfect, and yes it was meant to be kept perfectly, ultimately. To break these laws meant death, but God was merciful to the people. However, as God already knew, the people couldn't keep them. If the purpose of the laws were the same as the purpose of the laws enacted by congress, there was no need for a new covenant. Do you see congress making a new constitution? So God obviously wants perfection, and Jesus told the people that we are to be perfect, as the Father is perfect. God wants perfection, and it only makes sense if He created us perfect in the beginning.
So if what you're saying is correct, the focus seems to be about choosing others over ourself. That the community good is the best answer. This thought seems to be a pretty natural one doesn't it? By that, I mean was it really necessary for Jesus to die on the cross to teach us that? There are many atheists who are better at this attitude, than Christians who truly believe on Christ. Take a look at Bill Gates for instance. He's the quietest, wealthiest man in the country. There's no telling the amount of good he's done with his money. (I even heard, of course I don't know if it's true, that in his will he plans to give most most of his money to charities all over the country and world) He's doing all of that, and you never hear one word about it. He's doing what Jesus talked about, not sounding a trumpet when you do good. So ultimately, it seems we could come to this ultimate conclusion about community good, without the knowledge of Jesus and anything He taught. Christianity is not necessary.
Yet as you mention with that Titus verse, Jesus redeemed us from wickedness. This means without Christ, it doesn't matter what good you do, your wickedness remains. This goes to something more inherent, that you can't simply learn your way out of. This is something you have to receive, and literally be changed altogether. As I mentioned before, Paul specifically stated by Adam's disobedience, we were made sinners. So by Jesus obedience, we are made righteous. Jesus didn't just die a normal death. He actually died "our" death. He died as us, so we can live like Him.
I find it hard for there to be any other reasons for why God gave the Law. Congress enacts laws for us to have a better society. If we didn't have them, people would be free to do whatever they wanted. Their real desires would come out, no matter how good we think we are. Now God's laws were perfect, and yes it was meant to be kept perfectly, ultimately. To break these laws meant death, but God was merciful to the people. However, as God already knew, the people couldn't keep them. If the purpose of the laws were the same as the purpose of the laws enacted by congress, there was no need for a new covenant. Do you see congress making a new constitution? So God obviously wants perfection, and Jesus told the people that we are to be perfect, as the Father is perfect. God wants perfection, and it only makes sense if He created us perfect in the beginning.
This is an example of the type thinking I warned about in Post #8 -- It sees the Bible and God through the 'filter' of human wisdom and tends to 'spiritualize' or otherwise disregard any part of God's inspired Word (the Bible) that one cannot comprehend in a worldly context ... such as God's creation of man and earth.
In the case of the law, the Bible clearly explains the purpose of the law .... to lead us to an understanding of our own sin and need for Christ and the new covenant. We are made righteous and seen as 'perfect' by God, through Christ's righteousness ... not our own. (But, then, that's not how congress would do it!)
Simply put, what I call a perfect law, is a law that regulates the highest sense of morality. Take for instance the first command not to have any gods before God. Having Yahweh as your God is right in the absolute sense. Having any other god is simply wrong. So all of God's laws, which are summed up in the Ten, are the highest in terms of the morality. You can't get any higher than the Ten.
Besides all this, to everyone, I thank you for your responses to this thread. If I came off as egotistical, I'm sorry. I still want to know if there are any on here who want to discuss some possible hypotheses concerning young earth creationism? What to expect, possibly talk about some ideas to test out these hypotheses and so on? I want to reserve further discussion here to that purpose.
Simply put, what I call a perfect law, is a law that regulates the highest sense of morality. Take for instance the first command not to have any gods before God. Having Yahweh as your God is right in the absolute sense. Having any other god is simply wrong. So all of God's laws, which are summed up in the Ten, are the highest in terms of the morality. You can't get any higher than the Ten.
Matthew 22:38“This is the great and foremost commandment.39“The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’40“On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”
Sounds like these two are even more perfect than the rest. Kinda makes you wonder if there are grades of "perfect."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese
Besides all this, to everyone, I thank you for your responses to this thread. If I came off as egotistical, I'm sorry. I still want to know if there are any on here who want to discuss some possible hypotheses concerning young earth creationism? What to expect, possibly talk about some ideas to test out these hypotheses and so on? I want to reserve further discussion here to that purpose.
I have a lot of things to say which most Christians and creationists (not every Christian is a literal creationist) just don't understand, and don't want to understand.
For a thinking person like yourself within conservative Christianity, you're on a long, hard, alienating road. Been there myself. The whole thing is a house of cards. Every doctrine is inconsistent and ill supported, every assumption is without sound logic or evidence. Ignorance is bliss as they say so if you like your life and family and friends just don't ask any REAL questions about anything because you ultimatley won't be happy with the answers. For me it was eventually very liberating to get out from it intellectually, even if just to myself. But I'm still pretty much in the closet about it to my family.
For a thinking person like yourself within conservative Christianity, you're on a long, hard, alienating road. Been there myself. The whole thing is a house of cards. Every doctrine is inconsistent and ill supported, every assumption is without sound logic or evidence. Ignorance is bliss as they say so if you like your life and family and friends just don't ask any REAL questions about anything because you ultimatley won't be happy with the answers. For me it was eventually very liberating to get out from it intellectually, even if just to myself. But I'm still pretty much in the closet about it to my family.
I hear what you're saying. I believe with a little more digging, things will become clearer. I see Christianity a little different than most traditional, conservative Christians. I feel like a big discovery is right there about to be revealed, to help us see the origins of the Torah, the first five books.
I also hear what your sayin nateswift, I'll make another topic later if you want to continue our discussion.
Skim reading doesn't count . . . but we obviously disagree. If you have any real interest in rational explanations of the Bible stories . . . you would read it more diligently and think about it more. I suspect you want your magic and woo . . . or it isn't good enough to be about God. Anyone treating the Bible literally has no real interest in reason, logic or rationality.
I disagree. Christ did not come to die. He KNEW He would die at the hands of our savage ancestors BECAUSE of their ignorant and superstitious beliefs about God (that's what "they know not what they do" means, btw.). But His purpose in coming was to correct the ignorant beliefs about God and show us the Father unambiguously through His teaching, life and most especially His death. He "smote" no one despite scourging and crucifixion . . . and He forgave His torturers and murderers. There is no more obvious example of the true nature of God than that! The irony is that our savage ancestors ignored the obvious and interpreted it to agree with their ignorant and superstitious beliefs about God from the OT!! What is worse is that the religious leaders have perpetuated this ignorant distortion for over 2000 years as a sign of Faith in God.!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese
I did read most of it, and saw the rest as talking around the same points. I said if your interpretation is correct, then it renders Genesis useless, and you could take that same interpretation to every origin story in the world. Had I read the whole thing, I would have gave the same response.
Useless in what way? It chronicles our Creation and how our primitive species learned to develop the necessary skills and discrimination to achieve eternal life. At the time of Christ . . . the fields were ripe for the harvest thanks to our schoolmaster stage. Isaiah foretold how the efforts of a Messiah who would correct our ignorance (veil over reading the OT), teach us about God's love for us all, and pave the way for all of us with His perfection and rebirth as Spirit. Christ abides with us as the Father did with Him . . . so we have His Holy Spirit (Comforter) within our consciousness to guide us to the truth God has "written in our hearts" so we would not need anyone to teach us. That all seems pretty darn useful to me! The Bible is NOT to be read literally as we as natural man would read it. It is to be read Spiritually . . . as Christ the Spirit who is not judged by any man would read it (WWJT).
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