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He came as BOTH, romans.
He came to teach us to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't. Dying on the cross was how He saved us all from eternal separation from God because His human consciousness was reborn as Spirit (resurrected) as the Holy Spirit (Comforter) within all human consciousness. That is how He abides with us and guides us to what God has "written in our hearts" under the New Covenant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by romans519
God imputed our sins and the punishment for them in the body of Jesus. After He punished our sins in the body of Jesus, He imputed Jesus' righteousness to all who believe in Him for salvation. Righteousness is a gift, not a reward. We are not saved because Christ taught us how to be good. We are saved because Jesus removed our sins and gave us His righteousness.
Sins, punishment, blood sacrifice, ::Sigh:: all carnal thoughts and things using carnal thinking . . . NOT spiritual. Christ came to teach us love and He gave us the most unambiguous example of it . . . sacrificing His life to scourging and crucifixion by our ignorant savage ancestors. No greater love hath any man than that He lay down His life for others. Christ's life, teachings and death were all about His message of love from our loving Father. Jesus said if we would know the Father . . . know Him and His love for us all . . . even unto forgiving His torturers and murderers! What greater sin could be committed than to torture and kill the Son of God??? Yet you would have people worry about carnal trivialities . . . as if God were some eternally punishing monster.
He came to teach us what it meant to be "saved," and it's not about escaping Hell, it's about a change in the way we live in community and how the love of God works in our "more abundant" lives. Judgement, not just the final "Judgement Day" but in our lives now is no longer about Law, but about how we are now "friends" of God who love whom He loves and love to show it in our lives. Christ's death for our sins made the Law of no effect for condemnation.
Sins, punishment, blood sacrifice, ::Sigh:: all carnal thoughts and things using carnal thinking . . . NOT spiritual. Christ came to teach us love and He gave us the most unambiguous example of it . . . sacrificing His life to scourging and crucifixion by our ignorant savage ancestors. No greater love hath any man than that He lay down His life for others. Christ's life, teachings and death were all about His message of love from our loving Father. Jesus said if we would know the Father . . . know Him and His love for us all . . . even unto forgiving His torturers and murderers! What greater sin could be committed than to torture and kill the Son of God??? Yet you would have people worry about carnal trivialities . . . as if God were some eternally punishing monster.
But say the entire bible is true, isn't eternal life in believing in Jesus and eternal death for rejecting Him consistent with what scripture says? Jesus was not murdered, He laid down His life for us. Until you see humanity as sinners and Jesus as our righteousness you will never see the God of the bible, but only one you create in your mind from scripture. My thinking is not carnal as you put it, but consistent with the entire bible.
God imputed our sins and the punishment for them in the body of Jesus. After He punished our sins in the body of Jesus, He imputed Jesus' righteousness to all who believe in Him for salvation. Righteousness is a gift, not a reward. We are not saved because Christ taught us how to be good. We are saved because Jesus removed our sins and gave us His righteousness.
The Penal Substitution Theory is a false doctrine, but your sin is not held against you.
It's not an imagined participation, rather it is actually that of following in his footsteps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Sins, punishment, blood sacrifice, ::Sigh:: all carnal thoughts and things using carnal thinking . . . NOT spiritual. Christ came to teach us love and He gave us the most unambiguous example of it . . . sacrificing His life to scourging and crucifixion by our ignorant savage ancestors. No greater love hath any man than that He lay down His life for others. Christ's life, teachings and death were all about His message of love from our loving Father. Jesus said if we would know the Father . . . know Him and His love for us all . . . even unto forgiving His torturers and murderers! What greater sin could be committed than to torture and kill the Son of God??? Yet you would have people worry about carnal trivialities . . . as if God were some eternally punishing monster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift
He came to teach us what it meant to be "saved," and it's not about escaping Hell, it's about a change in the way we live in community and how the love of God works in our "more abundant" lives. Judgement, not just the final "Judgement Day" but in our lives now is no longer about Law, but about how we are now "friends" of God who love whom He loves and love to show it in our lives. Christ's death for our sins made the Law of no effect for condemnation.
"There is no love without forgiveness, and no forgiveness without love; for what power has love, but forgiveness."
The greatest being "Love one another as I have loved you". I see that as a lesson from a teacher. I've learned many things about how I should live my life because of the lessons taught and examples given by Christ. And from how he lived his life while he walked among us.
But say the entire bible is true, isn't eternal life in believing in Jesus and eternal death for rejecting Him consistent with what scripture says? Jesus was not murdered, He laid down His life for us. Until you see humanity as sinners and Jesus as our righteousness you will never see the God of the bible, but only one you create in your mind from scripture. My thinking is not carnal as you put it, but consistent with the entire bible.
Oh so true. The Jesus through whom salvation comes, died for our sins and no man took His life but He laid it down for us. If you reject that then you are rejecting salvation. End of story! This is what Jesus said and what God's written word to us says. Those who reject God and His word and His son's sacrifice for sin, reject God.
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