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Don't know if this has been asked before. I've never seen it.
I get that God has to separate Himself from sinful creatures. What I don't understand and continuously fail to understand is why the place He separates Himself from His wayward children has to be fiery and filled with the worst possible torture. Why couldn't He just create a dark pit where everyone stumbles around in the dark? What is the logical purpose of tossing them into a lake of fire where they writhe around for eternity like the T-1000 in the smelt cauldron at the end of Terminator 2?
Please, serious answers only. I really want to understand the logic. This is not a debate between universalists vs ET so please no "He won't do that" from Uni's. Please no personal attacks. Please no:
1. you're trying to start another fight
2. you have a hidden agenda
3. you're a troublemaker
4. you're in darkness therefore you can never understand......Try me.
5. sarcasm like, "Why don't you ask Him."
If you're going to say, "because that's what God's word says", please save it. I already know that. I'd just like to understand the reason or better, the logic of why God demands that the unsaved have to burn in horrible torment instead of just being in a painless eternal place of darkness. Isn't being eternally separated from Him and losing out on all the joys of heaven enough punishment in His eyes?
You're asking, "Why are you asking why?" I'm asking why because I cannot comprehend why God needs pain and fire to fulfill His sense of justice; why fire is the only thing that satisfies His wrath; why fire is the only thing that completes Jesus' "It is finished"; why without fire somehow Jesus' work on the cross is left unfulfilled; why merely being separated from Him which is pretty horrible suffering in and of itself is not enough to appease Him; why He cannot send the fallen angels and satan to hell and fire if He so chooses because their sins are far FAR worse than anything a human ever did in one lifetime? I couldn't give a rat's fig about the whys of getting into heaven. Nobody does. It's the hell issue that drives people away from Christianity, not the heaven issue.
That doesn't make sense to me. Everyone who goes to hell and suffers its fire will live through it and endure it for all eternity.
Questioning of one's beliefs makes for stronger belief when you find your answers. Spiritual answers are always the hardest because they are the hardest to quantify, it basically boils down to what do you believe?
Fire has historically been a cleanser, it destroys the old, the rotting, it drives out infestations of vermin, it sets the ground for planting and new beginnings.
I don't claim to know all the answers, perhaps in God's plan fire is used to burn away the evil so that redemption of a soul that spurned Jesus can eventually be brought back to God.
Those that didn't accept Jesus in life have to take the torment he suffered in our stead on themselves because of their unwillingness to accept what God has given.
I live in a land where in the winter the cold can burn your skin in seconds. There are accounts of both Fire Dragons and Ice Dragons in medieval liturature and the dragon was usually associated with Satan.
Perhaps the burning is the eternal cold of limbo as you are cast out from the warmth and light of God's love?
Perhaps it is fire that burns and cleans your soul of all your sins slowly returning the torment you gave to others through and unvirtuous life?
I have heard that Ghenna was a garbage pit where the fires burned constantly and the stench was overhwelming, it gave a physical place where perhaps people could get an idea of what the actual torments were like.
I don't know.
All I know is that having a close relationship with God in my life makes it much fuller and richer and gives meaning to all I see.
I have questions, but I find the answers when I speak to God in my heart and I am reassured that I don't need to have data points or reproducable results to believe that God does love us and has a plan for all to come to him, one way or the other.
God gives us clear choices, right or wrong, good or bad, embrace him or reject him. If we only know the good without the bad, how can the choice be made? If there is only good and no punishment for sin, why choose virtue?
If the punishment for sin is unending torment, it makes the choice a little easier, but it is still hard for some to come to God.
Not the best example but my point is we don't worry or bother to ask questions about how to get to heaven because it a desirable place to be. Who in their right mind questions a good outcome.
But nobody wants to end up be skewered on a BBQ skewer in hell for all eternity so the question naturally surfaces about something bad, right? Again, in case you missed it, nobody has questions about a good outcome---looking a gift horse in the mouth and all that. ....
So you interviewed every atheist, every Satanist? .....
.... every adamant Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Taoism, Babism, Bahá'Ã, Druze, Gnostic etc. ... etc. ... etc.
Why do you expect everybody to comprehend that your god (which that it is to them) is going to be the one they will have to bow before?
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
You're asking, "Why are you asking why?" I'm asking why because I cannot comprehend why God needs pain and fire to fulfill His sense of justice; why fire is the only thing that satisfies His wrath; why fire is the only thing that completes Jesus' "It is finished"; why without fire somehow Jesus' work on the cross is left unfulfilled; why merely being separated from Him which is pretty horrible suffering in and of itself is not enough to appease Him; why He cannot send the fallen angels and satan to hell and fire if He so chooses because their sins are far FAR worse than anything a human ever did in one lifetime? I couldn't give a rat's fig about the whys of getting into heaven. Nobody does. It's the hell issue that drives people away from Christianity, not the heaven issue....
Why does that matter to fact simply because you can't comprehend something.
Are you trying to imply that everything that exists does so because of your comprehension?
Can you comprehend heaven? ... If so then why doesn't Jesus say what it is exactly instead of saying that heaven "is like _______ " ?
You bring up the subject of fire ... ok.
Answer this why question of fire .... why didn't the bush that Moses saw on fire burn up?
Last edited by twin.spin; 07-19-2013 at 09:13 AM..
You mean the Fundamentalist Christian hell? Because it induces serious fear which gives a religious person power over others. What good would such a sword be unless it was incalculably threatening?
Yes, but you won't get that question from a Fundamentalist (traditionalist). I didn't ask the question rhetorically, which is why I just cannot engage twin-spin in debate. He is just turning my question around on me to try to make me look like some loon just for asking it. I'm truly seeking some sort of logical justification for why fire must be involved in the punishment. The "fear" factor gets into the UR vs ET debate which I had hoped to avoid (No offense--I know you didn't raise it for that purpose )
Mike gave I think an honest attempt at answering my question, but again there issues that would start a debate of ET vs UR and I'm trying to avoid that.
Someone got close. I will edit this to get their name in, but they said that God uses fire to cleanse. That gets close to a satisfactory logical answer. Jesus said "Everyone" will be sated with fire, I presume that includes Christians. A lot of people don't deal with the suggestion put forth by Luke that even Christians will undergo some form of cleansing with fire. I have to walk out the door now. I will continue this later.
This is probably the best answer here. Short and simple.
If you study the history of it, you will see there are multiple divergent thoughts.
Hell as an eternal place of torture is mostly a pagan invention.
The Jewish people thought of hell as lasting no more than one year, a kind of time to pay any necessary penalties.
In the OT, people did not know where you went when you died - they just called it 'hades' - the place of the dead, the unseen, or simply the grave.
After Christ, there were six theological schools on the afterlife: four believed in universal restoration, one believed in annihilation of unbelievers, and one believed in eternal hell and torment. The one that believed in eternal hell and torment was of course Rome, who went on to dominate the world and lead the dark ages for the next 600 years or so. They were the dark ages for a number of reasons, but one is that no one was even allowed to read the bible - you had to believe what you were told, and you were told that if you didn't follow along you were going to be burning in fire for eternity.
Fear is a good control mechanism... its alot easier to control the population when you don't have to rely solely on your military power; Religious power is important too.
The remnants of the damage done by Rome is still seen today.
Yes, but you won't get that question from a Fundamentalist (traditionalist). I didn't ask the question rhetorically, which is why I just cannot engage twin-spin in debate. He is just turning my question around on me to try to make me look like some loon just for asking it. I'm truly seeking some sort of logical justification for why fire must be involved in the punishment. The "fear" factor gets into the UR vs ET debate which I had hoped to avoid (No offense--I know you didn't raise it for that purpose )
Mike gave I think an honest attempt at answering my question, but again there issues that would start a debate of ET vs UR and I'm trying to avoid that.
Someone got close. I will edit this to get their name in, but they said that God uses fire to cleanse. That gets close to a satisfactory logical answer. Jesus said "Everyone" will be sated with fire, I presume that includes Christians. A lot of people don't deal with the suggestion put forth by Luke that even Christians will undergo some form of cleansing with fire. I have to walk out the door now. I will continue this later.
You don't want to because your correct ... for your absolute statements like "hell is driving away people from Christianity" is loony for when that same concept is found in other non-Christian religions (past and present). And all what your looking for are for people like Heartsong, pcamps to come along to justify your selective hypocrisy.
Your correct, it's loony to believe in a flowery, happy kum ba yah heaven which is beyond comprehension while not believing in something because it's beyond your comprehension.
Your correct, it's loony to take God as face value about heaven and then you don't about hell.
You don't want to because your correct ... for your absolute statements like "hell is driving away people from Christianity" is loony for when that same concept is found in other non-Christian religions (past and present). And all what your looking for are for people like Heartsong, pcamps to come along to justify your selective hypocrisy.
It is driving people away and not just from Christianity. I've met many examples and the recent influx of UR believers and pastor converts to UR is further proof (Quick! Someone blame Satan or the end times! lol). People are alot more educated, cultured, free, and connected worldwide today then they were in the past. Such an environment helps people who aren't brainwashed or don't have the "it is the way it is and thats the way it is, no exceptions!" type personality to really examine the morality and logic of traditional ideas when before it was considered sinful or waay outside the average person's paradigm or perhaps even mental capacity. In a world where 1000s or perhaps even millions of different religions are known, the old "God knows morality better than you, don't question Him!" excuse for concepts most people find morally atrocious (even if they don't realize it yet because they haven't really thought about it as it applies to their own faith) just doesn't cut it anymore...neither should it?
It is driving people away and not just from Christianity. I've met many examples and the recent influx of UR believers and pastor converts to UR is further proof (Quick! Someone blame Satan or the end times! lol). People are alot more educated, cultured, free, and connected worldwide today then they were in the past. Such an environment helps people who aren't brainwashed or don't have the "it is the way it is and thats the way it is, no exceptions!" type personality to really examine the morality and logic of traditional ideas when before it was considered sinful or waay outside the average person's paradigm or perhaps even mental capacity. In a world where 1000s or perhaps even millions of different religions are known, the old "God knows morality better than you, don't question Him!" excuse for concepts most people find morally atrocious (even if they don't realize it yet because they haven't really thought about it as it applies to their own faith) just doesn't cut it anymore...neither should it?
I was going to say....if twin thinks the Fundamentalist concept of eternal burning in hell is not driving people away from Christianity he better get off that computer stool of his and go out and start surveying people. Or he can save himself the trouble and read this:
Quote:
Top 15 Reasons Why People Are Leaving Christianity
#6 They do not understand why a God that loves everyone would send anyone to hell. For example, people of other religions (we're talking millions of people here), according to the Bible, would end up in Hell because they have not accepted Christ. If God truly loves everyone, why would he doom all of those people to torture in hell for eternity?
It is driving people away and not just from Christianity. I've met many examples and the recent influx of UR believers and pastor converts to UR is further proof (Quick! Someone blame Satan or the end times! lol). People are alot more educated, cultured, free, and connected worldwide today then they were in the past. Such an environment helps people who aren't brainwashed or don't have the "it is the way it is and thats the way it is, no exceptions!" type personality to really examine the morality and logic of traditional ideas when before it was considered sinful or waay outside the average person's paradigm or perhaps even mental capacity. In a world where 1000s or perhaps even millions of different religions are known, the old "God knows morality better than you, don't question Him!" excuse for concepts most people find morally atrocious (even if they don't realize it yet because they haven't really thought about it as it applies to their own faith) just doesn't cut it anymore...neither should it?
That doesn't prove anything other than people are hypocrites.
If you guys were truly interested in an answer other than a strawman question only so that you can vent the hype propaganda against this imagined boogey man Fundamentalist, you would have your answer of why by using the same standards for the why question when it comes to God and heaven.
Last edited by twin.spin; 07-19-2013 at 12:33 PM..
It is driving people away and not just from Christianity. I've met many examples and the recent influx of UR believers and pastor converts to UR is further proof (Quick! Someone blame Satan or the end times! lol). People are alot more educated, cultured, free, and connected worldwide today then they were in the past. Such an environment helps people who aren't brainwashed or don't have the "it is the way it is and thats the way it is, no exceptions!" type personality to really examine the morality and logic of traditional ideas when before it was considered sinful or waay outside the average person's paradigm or perhaps even mental capacity. In a world where 1000s or perhaps even millions of different religions are known, the old "God knows morality better than you, don't question Him!" excuse for concepts most people find morally atrocious (even if they don't realize it yet because they haven't really thought about it as it applies to their own faith) just doesn't cut it anymore...neither should it?
At the same time as people starting to wise up, donations have been falling off like a rock at TBN, so badly so that I hear Jan Crouch had to switch her cotton-candy wigs from custom made to mail order. I'm sure Matt Crouch is wondering if he'll have an empire to inherit at this rate. If Laurie divorces him in the next couple of years we'll know she got a look at the balance sheets and the news wasn't good.
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