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The Bible is Gods thoughts about spiritual matters written on paper but when a person is anointed of the Spirit those words become Living Words of Christ when Christ is present, the same as when they were given to the Prophets who wrote them down. To the world, the written word are just words, but to those who have the Spirit already or to those being drawn to Christ they are Life. It is a shame that some would belittle their importance and especially to the unlearned. If it they were good enough for Jesus to quote from then they are good enough for me.
Christ is the Living Word whether speaking by the Spirit directly to the Spirit in a man or from the pages of the Bible by the Spirit. The Word and the Spirit agree no matter from what source it comes from. Whether from a brother/sister, Bible, creation, a good and Godly book or direct from Christ. The whole earth is full of His Glory for those who have eyes to see.
Yes, but you won't get that question from a Fundamentalist (traditionalist). I didn't ask the question rhetorically, which is why I just cannot engage twin-spin in debate. He is just turning my question around on me to try to make me look like some loon just for asking it. I'm truly seeking some sort of logical justification for why fire must be involved in the punishment. The "fear" factor gets into the UR vs ET debate which I had hoped to avoid (No offense--I know you didn't raise it for that purpose )
Mike gave I think an honest attempt at answering my question, but again there issues that would start a debate of ET vs UR and I'm trying to avoid that.
Someone got close. I will edit this to get their name in, but they said that God uses fire to cleanse. That gets close to a satisfactory logical answer. Jesus said "Everyone" will be sated with fire, I presume that includes Christians. A lot of people don't deal with the suggestion put forth by Luke that even Christians will undergo some form of cleansing with fire. I have to walk out the door now. I will continue this later.
Well, the scriptures describe God as being a CONSUMING FIRE. So apparently God is going to CONSUME everything with his fire. I used to have recurring dreams for years of a house on fire. Then finally I had a dream where I was in the burning house and became one with the house that was on fire. I believed and continue to believe it was a spiritual dream about our becoming One with God. Everything that is corruptible will be burnt up and will be no more. Everything pure will endure God's fire. That's the only way I know how to explain it. I suppose if you like corruption then it will be painful for you to see corrupt things burnt up and destroyed. I am glad God is going to destroy all the nasty corrupt things. I am counting on it. If I didn't believe that - I'd lose all hope. When I see injustice, death, prejudice, greed, lust, fear-mongering, violence, I comfort myself by meditating on the promises of God to destroy all those things.
Well, the scriptures describe God as being a CONSUMING FIRE. So apparently God is going to CONSUME everything with his fire. I used to have recurring dreams for years of a house on fire. Then finally I had a dream where I was in the burning house and became one with the house that was on fire. I believed and continue to believe it was a spiritual dream about our becoming One with God. Everything that is corruptible will be burnt up and will be no more. Everything pure will endure God's fire. That's the only way I know how to explain it. I suppose if you like corruption then it will be painful for you to see corrupt things burnt up and destroyed. I am glad God is going to destroy all the nasty corrupt things. I am counting on it. If I didn't believe that - I'd lose all hope. When I see injustice, death, prejudice, greed, lust, fear-mongering, violence, I comfort myself by meditating on the promises of God to destroy all those things.
Daniels 3 friends were cast into the fire and only their bonds were consumed. Whether this was a true story or metaphorical sketch only, the metaphor stands. Scripture says judgment BEGINS at the house of God so all will be salted with fire. I do not believe this to be literal fire for the majority of people. Some people endure death or tragic disfiguration by fire in their mortal bodies but I cannot think a God of love would have arranged for the majority of his creation to undergo literal fire. If sane humans can't bear to see such suffering how could a God of life, creation and love do so?
No, I believe that the fire is metaphorical of the destruction of all impurities and this destruction is part of God's process to create a family of sons and daughters. He is not trying to salvage an experiment gone wrong or a failed attempt at creating perfect beings, but each step has been carefully wrought out in His perfect plan to create a family knowing good and evil firsthand. I trust that He is able and will finish what His purpose was and I trust that His purpose is good and of the highest intent for His entire creation. But each in his own order. Mighty and marvelous are the works of thy hands, O Lord, nothing can thwart the final intention of Your heart, no soul can avoid the destiny YOU have planned for him from before the first morning star shone forth. You are not impotent but you are patient, something which mortal souls cannot fathom. You raise up a Pharaoh with the same hand that you raise up a Moses and neither had the meansl to resist your plans for him. You gave Joseph a dream of glory and had him foolishly tell his brothers which drove his brothers to be jealous and consequently, after much humiliation and suffering, he was raised to the throne in Egypt just as his dream foretold, yet knowing that it was You who arranged each step and incident along the way, including his brothers' evil act. "YOU (his brothers) meant it for evil but God meant it to be for much good and saving of life." How can we not see that you have arranged everything that happens? It would seem good to us if everyone could see and recognize You, O Lord, for who and what you are in this moment, but You are wiser than we, and in Your time all will bow their knee and swear allegiance to You and You will be all in all. You have declared it and it shall be done.
Daniels 3 friends were cast into the fire and only their bonds were consumed. Whether this was a true story or metaphorical sketch only, the metaphor stands. Scripture says judgment BEGINS at the house of God so all will be salted with fire. I do not believe this to be literal fire for the majority of people. Some people endure death or tragic disfiguration by fire in their mortal bodies but I cannot think a God of love would have arranged for the majority of his creation to undergo literal fire. If sane humans can't bear to see such suffering how could a God of life, creation and love do so?
No, I believe that the fire is metaphorical of the destruction of all impurities and this destruction is part of God's process to create a family of sons and daughters. He is not trying to salvage an experiment gone wrong or a failed attempt at creating perfect beings, but each step has been carefully wrought out in His perfect plan to create a family knowing good and evil firsthand. I trust that He is able and will finish what His purpose was and I trust that His purpose is good and of the highest intent for His entire creation. But each in his own order. Mighty and marvelous are the works of thy hands, O Lord, nothing can thwart the final intention of Your heart, no soul can avoid the destiny YOU have planned for him from before the first morning star shone forth. You are not impotent but you are patient, something which mortal souls cannot fathom. You raise up a Pharaoh with the same hand that you raise up a Moses and neither had the meansl to resist your plans for him. You gave Joseph a dream of glory and had him foolishly tell his brothers which drove his brothers to be jealous and consequently, after much humiliation and suffering, he was raised to the throne in Egypt just as his dream foretold, yet knowing that it was You who arranged each step and incident along the way, including his brothers' evil act. "YOU (his brothers) meant it for evil but God meant it to be for much good and saving of life." How can we not see that you have arranged everything that happens? It would seem good to us if everyone could see and recognize You, O Lord, for who and what you are in this moment, but You are wiser than we, and in Your time all will bow their knee and swear allegiance to You and You will be all in all. You have declared it and it shall be done.
Okay, very good. Now we're starting to get to the heart of the matter: fire (extreme heat) is an agent used to cleanse impurities and to sterilize. We find this in our own laws of nature so that makes sense to me. So we can transfer this process to a spiritual level and hell.
Now the problem comes when trying to apply a cleansing process to souls eternally condemned to a fiery lake where, if there is a cleansing process going on, it continues for eternity never able to purge the victim of his sins.
I recall Mike555 and others once saying that Christ paid the penalty for all sin at the cross. Therefore all unsaved are cast into hell (lake) for the exact same sin, unbelief, and this would naturally mean that everyone receives the exact same degree of punishment---because the sin is exactly the same for everyone. Then there is Christ's words about "he who did things worthy of many stripes but didn't know will receive few, but others who knew would receive many" indicating levels of punishment. Now this would make sense to me, except we've eliminated the different levels of punishment in hell thing because everyone is guilty of the same sin, so Christ's words do not apply to people in hell. Therefore they must apply to Christians somehow. But how can that be when a saved person goes directly into God's presence and is fully justified upon dying in a state of salvation?
So who does Christ's words apply to? They don't apply to the damned and they don't apply to the saved.
Again, if fire is not being used as a cleansing agent in hell (lake) then once again, wren's and heartsong's hypothesis (a good one, BTW) is not applicable anywhere except here on earth in some metaphysical/spiritual way, it seems.
Last edited by thrillobyte; 07-20-2013 at 10:11 AM..
Dead souls or people [ Ezekiel 18 vs 4,20 ] in the fiery lake are not purged but like Satan end up in 'second death'.
Isn't the definition of the lake of fire: 'second death' according to Revelation 20 vs 13,14; 21 v 8 ?________
Don't the wicked end up destroyed forever according to Psalm 92 v 7 ?_______
Isn't Satan wicked?______Doesn't Jesus destroy Satan according to Hebrews 2 v 14 B ?_______
Since souls [ people and angels] can be destroyed according to gospel writer Luke at Acts 3 v 23, then destruction awaits the unrepentant according to to 2nd Peter 3 v 9 and John 3 v 16 B [ perish = destroyed ]
Dead souls or people [ Ezekiel 18 vs 4,20 ] in the fiery lake are not purged but like Satan end up in 'second death'.
Isn't the definition of the lake of fire: 'second death' according to Revelation 20 vs 13,14; 21 v 8 ?________
Don't the wicked end up destroyed forever according to Psalm 92 v 7 ?_______
Isn't Satan wicked?______Doesn't Jesus destroy Satan according to Hebrews 2 v 14 B ?_______
Since souls [ people and angels] can be destroyed according to gospel writer Luke at Acts 3 v 23, then destruction awaits the unrepentant according to to 2nd Peter 3 v 9 and John 3 v 16 B [ perish = destroyed ]
Unfortunately, apolesai is one of those Greek words that can be argued till the cows come home as to whether "destroy" mean destruction of the physical life or the eternal life. So Mike 555 says God cannot cause a soul to be annihilated, maybe that's true maybe not--I don't know Greek so I cannot argue for or against it. Same with "second death". I don't know if that is all cessation of consciousness, or if it is descriptive of "ruin" in the sense of eternal torment. I'm totally in the dark. A normal state for me when I try to decipher the sacred texts these days so I've given up trying and instead ask questions like this one.
Daniels 3 friends were cast into the fire and only their bonds were consumed. Whether this was a true story or metaphorical sketch only, the metaphor stands. Scripture says judgment BEGINS at the house of God so all will be salted with fire. I do not believe this to be literal fire for the majority of people. Some people endure death or tragic disfiguration by fire in their mortal bodies but I cannot think a God of love would have arranged for the majority of his creation to undergo literal fire. If sane humans can't bear to see such suffering how could a God of life, creation and love do so?
No, I believe that the fire is metaphorical of the destruction of all impurities and this destruction is part of God's process to create a family of sons and daughters. He is not trying to salvage an experiment gone wrong or a failed attempt at creating perfect beings, but each step has been carefully wrought out in His perfect plan to create a family knowing good and evil firsthand. I trust that He is able and will finish what His purpose was and I trust that His purpose is good and of the highest intent for His entire creation. But each in his own order. Mighty and marvelous are the works of thy hands, O Lord, nothing can thwart the final intention of Your heart, no soul can avoid the destiny YOU have planned for him from before the first morning star shone forth. You are not impotent but you are patient, something which mortal souls cannot fathom. You raise up a Pharaoh with the same hand that you raise up a Moses and neither had the meansl to resist your plans for him. You gave Joseph a dream of glory and had him foolishly tell his brothers which drove his brothers to be jealous and consequently, after much humiliation and suffering, he was raised to the throne in Egypt just as his dream foretold, yet knowing that it was You who arranged each step and incident along the way, including his brothers' evil act. "YOU (his brothers) meant it for evil but God meant it to be for much good and saving of life." How can we not see that you have arranged everything that happens? It would seem good to us if everyone could see and recognize You, O Lord, for who and what you are in this moment, but You are wiser than we, and in Your time all will bow their knee and swear allegiance to You and You will be all in all. You have declared it and it shall be done.
And the son of God was in the fire with them, yet Jesus had not yet come into the world. What a marvelous prophecy and fulfillment of the truth that he was, and is and is to come and that what is, has already been and shall always be. God IS!!! Glory to him!
Unfortunately, apolesai is one of those Greek words that can be argued till the cows come home as to whether "destroy" mean destruction of the physical life or the eternal life. So Mike 555 says God cannot cause a soul to be annihilated, maybe that's true maybe not--I don't know Greek so I cannot argue for or against it. Same with "second death". I don't know if that is all cessation of consciousness, or if it is descriptive of "ruin" in the sense of eternal torment. I'm totally in the dark. A normal state for me when I try to decipher the sacred texts these days so I've given up trying and instead ask questions like this one.
Ezekiel 18 vs 4,20 says the soul that sins dies [ no one has an immortal soul ]
Gospel writer Luke wrote at Acts 3 v 23 that the soul can be destroyed.
2nd Thess. 1 v 9 equates punishment with everlasting destruction.
Gehenna [ KJV English as hellfire ] was simply a garbage pit where dead things were destroyed not eternally tortured.
Jesus gave two choices: Life as in everlasting life or perish as in destruction at John 3 v 16 B.
Also, the two choices at 2nd Peter 3 v 9 is repent or perish [ be destroyed ]
At Psalm 92 v 7 the wicked are to be annihilated or destroyed forever.
Adam lost eternal physical life.
Adam 'returned' to where Adam started.
Adam started from the dust and at death Adam 'returned' to dust.
Adam was never offered heaven [ John 3 v 13 ] but to live forever on earth as long as he did not break God's law.
Jesus will restore God's original purpose to have humans live forever on earth. A paradisaic earth when the whole globe will blossom like the Garden of Eden on a earth-wide scale starting with Jesus' coming 1000-year reign over earth.
-Psalm 72 v 8, 12-14
Well lets go to Gods word and not just SAY two words Gods word. Turn to 1 Peter3:12 For the eyes of the LORD are over the righteous and his ears are open to their prayers but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil." Meaning that if you do evil you will be punished. Why? Because God is the creator of all things ''In the begining God created the heaven and the earth.'' This includes that serpent the devil who is sent to decieve all nations kindreds and tounges. Furthermore just like your parents created you and brought you into this world GOD brought all things into being so he is the father of all things. So weather you know it or not believe it or not ACCEPT it or not you are in a parent child relationship with God and if you accept his only begotten son(only son concieved of him imaculately though of course) you become his child.(one of his favored sons.) If you run the race good (see 1 cor.9) you will be rewarded with a crown of life. However turn now to Colossians3:2-11 and it talks about what happens to disobedient children. "Set your affection on things aboue not on things on the earth.For ye are dead and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ who is our life shall appear then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Mortify therefore your members upon the earth fornication uncleaness inordinate affection evil concupisense and coveteousness,which is idolatry.FOR WHICH THINGS SAKE THE WRATH OF GOD cometh on the CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE!" See right there before i continue in verse 7 I want to explain here that HELL IS NOT SEPERATION FROM GOD but it is the WRATH AND PUNISHMENT of GOD for the unsaved people who havent accepted JESUS CHRIST as their saviour. There is none righteous no not one and if youre not saved then get saved because theres nothing WE can do on our own to get to heaven but only by the blood of Jesus who SUFFERED AND DIED on the cross for our transgression and iniquity!Okay verse 7"In the which ye also walked some time when ye lived in them. But now ye also put off all these anger wrath malice blasphemey filthy communications out of your mouth.Lie not one to another seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds.and have put on the new man which is renewed in knowlege after the image of him that created him. Where there is neither Greek nor Jew,Circumcision nor uncircumcision Barbarian Scythian bond nor free but Christ is all and in all.''See its not even for our righteousness they go to hell but for their rejecting wickedness. Now were gonna talk about the bottomless pit go if you will for me to the book of Revelation of St. John the Devine also known as St.Johns Apocalypse.Were gonna see what the bottomless pit is and where it ends up. Of course that would be the Lake of Fire. Which God and all of us who are saved will behold for eternity.Revelation chapter 9:1''And the fifth angel sounded and I saw a star fall from heaven to the earth.(the stars in the sky are literally angels dont let false science decieve you)and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.And he opened the bottomless pit;and there arose a smoke out of the pit,as the smoke of a great furnace;and the sun and the moon were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit." Next it talks about the Locusts that came out of this hell of the bottomless pit and how they did torment men.When you find time please read about it for yourself but learn about the mark of the beast FIRST so you dont confuse/decieve yourself. Now skip to verse 11 of the same chapter and same book it reads"And they had a king over them which is the angel of the bottomless pit whos name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.''(meaning Destruction-Abaddon Destroyer -Apollyon) This is a euphamism for Deamons(locusts) the devil(abaddon) HELL(the pit). To understand this further we have to now go to the old testament to understand the new testament and maybe this will put a nail in the coffin and answer the rest of your question. Proverbs 15:9-11''The way of the wicked is an abomination unto the LORD but he loveth him that followeth after righteousness.Correction is grievous to him that forsaketh the way and he that hateth reproof shall die.Hell(Sheol) and destruction(Abaddon) are before(in FRONT OF)the LORD:how much more then the hearts of the children of men." So right there it speaks of hell and destruction being before Gods face so its not seperation and it speaks of the devil the destroyer also being in front of God.God builds up and the devil tears down if you accept God and Jesus and the Holy Ghost then he will lift you up if not you will be (Apollyon)destroyed by Satan (the adversary) of all believers and the enemy of the LORD himself. Now go back to Revelation and lets see what happens TO THE PIT the devil and all lost souls not written in The Lambs Book of Life. Revelation chapter 20 Its 15 verses long and im not gonna type the whole thing but i encourage you to read it. Basically After the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ upon this earth in which the devil is bound he will be loosed out of his prision. Verse 8"and shall go out to decieve the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle:the number of whom is the sand of the sea.(this is all the lost people who didnt accept Jesus as LORD and Saviour.) Verse 9"And they went upon the breadth of the earth,and compassed the camp of the saints about and the beloved city and FIRE came down from GOD out of HEAVEN,and devoured them. And the devil that decieved them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Verse 13 talks about how death and hell delivered up the dead that were in them:and they were judged every man acording to their works.And death and HELL WERE CAST INTO the LAKE OF FIRE.This is the second death. (Just going to hell to begin with is the first one because though our bodies die our souls never die due to Jesus sacrifice.) and finally verse 15"and whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." So why do people go to hell and why are they gonna burn forever? Because every man is unrighteous and deny GOD and are disobedient children of deciet and WICKEDNESS. Basically rule breakers and thats time for the crime. How do you get in the book of life? Believe in the LAMB slain from the foundation of the world for out sins Jesus Christ! May God bless you and I sincerely hope and pray in the name of jesus that this resolves the matter of conflict about understanding how SERIOUS it all is and that YES YOU will burn if you go to hell FOREVER. YES you will weep and I could go on and on and on and i can tell most people dont wanna take the time to explain or they dont want to confront this themselves or they wanna believe the lies of the devil himself and false teachers like Billy Graham who say theyres no fire or that its seperation from God because they want to sound politically correct in interviews. They deny the truth PLAINLY STATED IF SAUGHT OUT in The Bible and because of that and leading so many others to hell I can infer they go there themselves based on the judgement guidelines PREVIEWED and PRESENTED in Revelation chapter20
Doesn't Revelation 20 vs 13,14 bring to our attention that the definition of the lake of fire is Not a literal burning but means: 'second death' ?
Satan ends up not in hell but ends up in 'second death'- Rev 21 v 8
Those resurrected to heaven [ 1st Cor. 15 v 50; Rev 20 v 6; 5 vs 9,10 ] are free from 'second death'.
The sea 'gives up' its dead [ those drowned or buried at sea ] will be 'delivered up' meaning resurrected back to life.
Both death and hell also 'give up' its dead because everyone in biblical hell [ sheol ] will be 'delivered up' [ resurrected ] back to life again.
Jesus has the keys to unlock the Bible's hell [ gravedom ] - Revelation 1 v 18.
Then, after they are resurrected back to healthy physical life on earth during Jesus 1000-year reign over earth, then the resurrected dead are judged [ judgment guidelines ] on what they do 'after' they are resurrected.- Acts 24 v 15
If they then prove unfaithful then those resurrected ones on earth can end up like Satan in 'second death'.
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