Can Muslim Women Influence Christian Women? (celibacy, preach, agnostic, beliefs)
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Can you imagine having to wear a headscarf and long sleeves and pants in 100 degree summer weather?
Yes.
It's called "summer cotton" and it's done by any sensible woman who doesn't want to have skin like leather by the time she's 45. I live where it's a heck of a lot hotter than 100 and it's not uncommon to see men wearing a scarf under their baseball caps (or cowboy hats) to keep the sun off their necks. A hijab (which I've worn) is actually very sensible in areas where there is a hot, glaring sun.
Last edited by DewDropInn; 08-01-2013 at 08:29 PM..
Reason: Spelling oops
It's called "summer cotton" and it's done by any sensible woman who doesn't want to have skin like leather by the time she's 45. I live where it's a heck of a lot hotter than 100 and it's not uncommon to see men wearing a scarf under their baseball caps (or cowboy hats) to keep the sun off their necks. A hijab (which I've worn) is actually very sensible in areas where there is a hot, glaring sun.
Oh, honey. Women wearing hijabs in the summer are not comfortable. You would think they've mastered summer cotton or whatever, but they haven't. They are sweaty and hot and miserable. As someone who has ridden a crowded metro full of women in various types of islamic dress, TRUST ME ON THIS ONE. THE NOSE KNOWS.
Like I said, there's a happy medium between covering up head to toe and showing everything you've got. I don't think cultures (note I think this is more a cultural than religious thing) that encourage women to completely cover their hair and bodies are doing anything more than trying to control those women, their movement, their ability to spend time outside, and their ability to express themselves.
Also, many men in these countries wear short sleeves, shorts, and tend not to wear any headwear. Why not, if covering your body head to toe is merely the sensible thing to do? Why not show solidarity with the women? Also note that the traditional color for hijabs and abayas is black. Black black black. In hot hot hot weather. These people just don't want women to go outside, period.
It's called "summer cotton" and it's done by any sensible woman who doesn't want to have skin like leather by the time she's 45. I live where it's a heck of a lot hotter than 100 and it's not uncommon to see men wearing a scarf under their baseball caps (or cowboy hats) to keep the sun off their necks. A hijab (which I've worn) is actually very sensible in areas where there is a hot, glaring sun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimar
You guys realize that there are Christian communities in Muslim countries, right? And that the Christian women in those countries do not wear headscarves despite how much easier it would make their lives as far as fitting in? Modest dress in Islam is also completely different from modest dress in Christianity. Can you imagine having to wear a headscarf and long sleeves and pants in 100 degree summer weather? There's a medium between being completely covered up and walking around in a thong, you know. I'd say that most American women walk that line rather admirably, don't you think? Headscarves also used to be the custom in many countries for all women, but that is obviously no longer the case.
And there's a lot of naivete on display here about Muslim women, as if wearing a headscarf means that you are pious, sweet, and submissive, with better marriages. HA! As someone who lived in a muslim country, Muslim women have the same character flaws as everyone else. In an environment where women feel compelled to dress "modestly" you also see women pushing the boundaries as much as they can, with skin-tight clothing, gaudy makeup, jewelry, etc. Divorce is not prohibited in Islam and divorce is widespread in Muslim countries. If muslims in the U.S. get divorced less it is probably due to socioeconomic factors, i.e., that they tend to be well-educated, affluent, and from "better" families. Immigrants probably feel more pressure to stay in their marriages even if they are bad as well.
As DewDropIn pointed out covering the body up in extremely hot, dry climates is a practical thing that helps protect the skin. When I was in the Marine Corps white Marines would get "written up" if they got sunburned. Ergo, it behooved them protect their skin, and while we rolled our sleeves up during the summer (though in heavily forested, humid, hot environments you'd have your sleeves all the way down) we still wore cammie pants with our boots "bloused" with out trousers. Not to mention it's mandatory all U.S. Marines were their "cover" (military cap/hat) when outdoors.
You don't want tight fitting clothing in hot, dry weather. You want loose fitting clothing because it both protects the skin from the sun and helps cool the body by protecting the sweat on the body.
This is one significant reason this kind of fashion developed in hot, dry climates:
Men have also worn robes (men wore skirts throughout most of Europe for centuries until they adopted trousers from the nomadic horsemen of the Eastern world). Generally, Jesus is depicted wearing robes (not trousers and V-neck T-shirts). You know ancient white Roman men wore them. Jesus is even sometimes depicted with his head covered. Men today in some nations cover their heads with scarfs too. When I was in the Marine Corps a lot of white Marines used to derogatorily refer to Arabs men that were Muslims as "Rag Heads."
Depiction of Jesus as played by an actor in Mel Gibson's movie Passion.
I'll address the rest of your post in a post below.
As DewDropIn pointed out covering the body up in extremely hot, dry climates is a practical thing that helps protect the skin. When I was in the Marine Corps white Marines would get "written up" if they got sunburned. Ergo, it behooved them protect their skin, and while we rolled our sleeves up during the summer (though in heavily forested, humid, hot environments you'd have your sleeves all the way down) we still wore cammie pants with our boots "bloused" with out trousers. Not to mention it's mandatory all U.S. Marines were their "cover" (military cap/hat) when outdoors.
You don't want tight fitting clothing in hot, dry weather. You want loose fitting clothing because it both protects the skin from the sun and helps cool the body by protecting the sweat on the body.
This is one significant reason this kind of fashion developed in hot, dry climates:
Men have also worn robes (men wore skirts throughout most of Europe for centuries until they adopted trousers from the nomadic horsemen of the Eastern world). Generally, Jesus is depicted wearing robes (not trousers and V-neck T-shirts). You know ancient white Roman men wore them. Jesus is even sometimes depicted with his head covered. Men today in some nations cover their heads with scarfs too. When I was in the Marine Corps a lot of white Marines used to derogatorily refer to Arabs men that were Muslims as "Rag Heads."
Depiction of Jesus as played by an actor in Mel Gibson's movie Passion.
I'll address the rest of your post in a post below.
Women in these cultures are discouraged from going out unless absolutely necessary. Those women wearing black robes are protected from sunburn, but they are NOT comfortable, nor is it intended for them to be comfortable. The home has been the realm of the middle eastern woman for thousands of years. I know this because... I AM MIDDLE EASTERN! Women in the middle east rejected the hijab decades ago, but as religious extremism became more fashionable, slowly everyone started wearing them again. My mother and everyone in her generation wore short skirts in a middle eastern country. Even my husband remembers a time when few women bothered with the hijab. They're a religious observation, but they're not comfortable and they're not meant to be comfortable. If you believe that you are doing something for God, you shouldn't really be obsessed with comfort anyway.
Also note there is a difference between being a shepherd in a desert and walking and living in an urban, modern environment. There are different dress requirements for each. Those long flowing robes aren't going to be terribly pleasant on elevators and escalators. The average man or woman living in a hot place today doesn't NEED to dress like Jesus and his apostles. It is more of a burden than a benefit at this point.
As I stated in post #14 I would finish addressing this post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimar
You guys realize that there are Christian communities in Muslim countries, right? And that the Christian women in those countries do not wear headscarves despite how much easier it would make their lives as far as fitting in? Modest dress in Islam is also completely different from modest dress in Christianity. Can you imagine having to wear a headscarf and long sleeves and pants in 100 degree summer weather? There's a medium between being completely covered up and walking around in a thong, you know. I'd say that most American women walk that line rather admirably, don't you think? Headscarves also used to be the custom in many countries for all women, but that is obviously no longer the case.
And there's a lot of naivete on display here about Muslim women, as if wearing a headscarf means that you are pious, sweet, and submissive, with better marriages. HA! As someone who lived in a muslim country, Muslim women have the same character flaws as everyone else. In an environment where women feel compelled to dress "modestly" you also see women pushing the boundaries as much as they can, with skin-tight clothing, gaudy makeup, jewelry, etc. Divorce is not prohibited in Islam and divorce is widespread in Muslim countries. If muslims in the U.S. get divorced less it is probably due to socioeconomic factors, i.e., that they tend to be well-educated, affluent, and from "better" families. Immigrants probably feel more pressure to stay in their marriages even if they are bad as well.
You may be right, to extent, that I may have a certain naivete about Muslim women in the East (or West). Not that I think most of them are saints. By my Catholic influences I view saints as a rarity among both men and women.
And for the record her, when use the term "evil" for a person I use it connoting the extreme opposite of a saint. Those I refer to as "good" and "bad" people I view as falling in between the far end spectrum of saints and evil people.
I've personally never met an evil homosexual or lesbian. That's me personally. I've met homosexuals and lesbians I would qualify as good or bad people. I have met an evil man before. He was a heterosexual and an NCO in the U.S. Marine Corps that was accused of raping, murdering, and mutilating women from Okinawa to the United States. And from a lone encounter with him I know from the look in his eyes he was guilty of those crimes and enjoyed murdering and torturing women/people.
There are evil people all over the earth. Muslim nations are no exception. A pagan nation like Liberia has an enormous number of them. But the United States seems to produce a lot of evil people too, not as many as Liberia, but a lot nonetheless.
There are good people in the U.S. among both men and women. However, in my view Americans have increasingly become more and more "bad" people. The female population of Americans in particular is just going from bad to worse.
Of course, my views are probably skewed from being steeped in ethnic Black-American society and culture, and outside of Liberia, I'm not sure another nation produces as mean, violent, and just morally corrupted female population as Black-America. Whereas almost all Black-American females are probably going to punch a guy in the face at some point over some trivial disagreement, not even most White-American females do that.
To understand my comments and views you have to understand the prevailing female environment I'm in.
These two women views of life and way of communicating would be typical of about 70% of Black-Americans girls and women in Milwaukee I would say. To that extent, I think you are naive to some smaller or greater extent about "American women" that are feminist and liberal. And I'm no conservative. I'm just human.
Of course, anyone can pick what videos on youtube they want to represent X, Y, or Z group. True. But like I said, the video above is I believe representative of well over 50% (51% or more would constitute a numerical majority) of the prevailing female environment I'm in. It's liberal, feminist, and shaped to varying extents by Protestant Christianity. I'm sure both those women can quote a few selected passages out of the bible.
So, it makes you reflect on "what America gave you" .
But given that liberals in the West are the biggest champions of Islam in their hopes to divide Christians and Muslims (not difficult given a lot of conservatives and many conservative Christians talk constant smack and garbage about Muslims and Islam), their defense of all things Islamic might actually result in Muslim female tradition of wearing a head scarf becoming cool. And many adults are like 12 year old kids, they can't resist anything regarded as "cool."
I don't think of those Muslim ladies (wearing head scarfs--the hijab I guess it's called) in that video at Catholic University of America as "submissive."
I think of those Muslim ladies as strong, beautiful, and resistant to many American cultural mores.
Plus, the various way they wear the head scarf (hijab) is actually very attractive in terms of fashion if you ask me.
And you are right there is a medium between being completely covered up and wearing a thong.
But I'm not against the thong. I'm a bit of a Brazilian-phile actually. The Brazilians appear to be a bit less schizo than their feminist, liberal peers in the United States. In the U.S. feminists would view the beaches of Rio as a curse among mankind torturing women and girls, yet they will simultaneously love the beaches of Rio if Christians or conservatives make critical remarks about the flesh and sex culture of Rio de Janeiro.
The Muslim women in that video are not schizo either. They have a nice coherent view I suspect as relates to the female/male yin and yang with respects to the female concept of "a real man."
But like you, in general, I like the typical fashion of American women. Why do you think I don't? The liberal American is schizo over the typical American female fashion. I don't run the U.S. fashion industry (mostly gay men are involved in it), h__ll I don't even buy clothing for a single girl or woman in the U.S., but being a heterosexual male somehow I get blamed for the clothing feminist, liberal, girls and women buy themselves and put on. They same kind of clothing and fashion feminist, liberals demanded become the norm to end the reign of evil, oppressive, Christianity over women.
Women in these cultures are discouraged from going out unless absolutely necessary. Those women wearing black robes are protected from sunburn, but they are NOT comfortable, nor is it intended for them to be comfortable.
How is a loose fitting robe of light cotton not comfortable? That kind of like saying a silk shirt on a man is not comfortable and not meant to be comfortable.
Is this more physically comfortable for a woman?
I can see dressing like these Argentinian women in this photo, can be very comfortable. Maybe.
Quote:
The home has been the realm of the middle eastern woman for thousands of years. I know this because... I AM MIDDLE EASTERN!
Maybe, but the young women in that CUA video were college students attending a university in the United States. Also, with no exaggeration, I see young Muslim women wearing the hijab all over on the campus of UW-Milwaukee. I've been in classes with some of them. One young woman in my class was actually from Saudi Arabia. (From the look in her eyes, I don't think she was too pleased when I told I visited the UAE when I was in Desert Storm in the military.)
Quote:
Women in the middle east rejected the hijab decades ago, but as religious extremism became more fashionable, slowly everyone started wearing them again. My mother and everyone in her generation wore short skirts in a middle eastern country. Even my husband remembers a time when few women bothered with the hijab. They're a religious observation, but they're not comfortable and they're not meant to be comfortable. If you believe that you are doing something for God, you shouldn't really be obsessed with comfort anyway.
Not all over the Middle East. The hijab has been traditional in many parts of the Muslim Middle East.
Like I said... the French intellectual Fernand Braudel pointed out in one of his books I read that "stable societies" have clothing fashion that in some cases date back thousands of years. Whereas he pointed out that in progressive societies (capitalist Western ones) fashion is trendy and constantly changing. I read one of his famous books on the history of capitalism.
The fashion trends in the United States and Europe--or Sao Paulo in Latin America--is not necessarily driven by the one factor of comfort. In some cases comfort may not be a primary aim.
I like wearing neckties for example (although, currently I don't own one ). I need to get some silk neckties. But I'm not sure I would say when I have worn neckties they were comfortable per se. They didn't and don't bother me really but they're not like wearing a loose pair of pajamas.
The world has primarily adopted Western fashion. Though, I doubt that's mostly due to religion or Christianity. More too do perhaps with the reach of U.S. and European media and the U.S. and Western Europe being both so incredible rich and so incredibly militarily powerful.
Traditional fashion in Japan has pretty much given way to Western fashion. In some corners of the earth as in the UAE and India some native traditional fashion has remained.
India.
UAE.
Quote:
Also note there is a difference between being a shepherd in a desert and walking and living in an urban, modern environment. There are different dress requirements for each. Those long flowing robes aren't going to be terribly pleasant on elevators and escalators. The average man or woman living in a hot place today doesn't NEED to dress like Jesus and his apostles. It is more of a burden than a benefit at this point.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it!!
You think the world adopting U.S. and European fashion is primarily driven by practicality?
Do you think the reason English is essentially the business language of the world is because the English language makes more sense than say Portuguese, Arab, Swahili, or Japanese?
You think every thing coming out of the mouths of American feminist women is universal truth?
Consider Brazilian TV--secular TV--and women clothed in just body paint. Body paint depicting jeans and T-shirts etc. With the nipples and vagina probably covered with some non-pain material to conceal both.
You can view some of that on youtube by punching in these titles:
Brazilian Girls in Bodypaint Alone!!
And apparently, some people in Miami wanted to have a party with this theme. But not as good as they do it in Brazil.
Brazilian Body Paint Party | Versace Mansion | Miami Beach |
But your American feminist usually would decry something like the "Brazilian Girls in Bodypaint Alone!!" airing on American TV. They'd claim it would kill the spirit of young girls and women by sexually objectifying women. So, they'd (feminists) get pretty puritanical. But a lot of Amerindian women in South America were walking around near-nude, topless, with paint on their bodies, before European Christians arrived.
Muslim prisoners (aka women) are faithful and follow all the rules to keep from having their head cut off by their family. When they take over here all the American women will do the same. It's a great way to successfully have your women do what you want.
Muslim prisoners (aka women) are faithful and follow all the rules to keep from having their head cut off by their family. When they take over here all the American women will do the same. It's a great way to successfully have your women do what you want.
There are many devoute and sincere Muslim women just as there are Hindu women.
I recall from reading Carlos Ghosn's autobiography in his book Shift that he stated that in Lebanon the Eastern Catholic faith is handed down and protected by the Lebanese women. In some Eastern Orthodox Churches grandmothers are regarded as the guardians of the Orthodox faith too.
Carlos Ghosn, KBE (Arabic: كارلوس غصن, born 9 March 1954) is a French-Lebanese-Brazilian[2][3] businessman who is currently the Chairman and CEO of Paris-based Renault and holds the same positions at Japan-based Nissan, which together produce more than one in 10 cars sold worldwide.[4] Ghosn is also Chairman and CEO of the Renault-Nissan Alliance, the strategic partnership overseeing the two companies through a unique cross-shareholding agreement.
For orchestrating one of the decade's most aggressive downsizing campaigns and spearheading the turnaround of Nissan from near bankruptcy in the late 1990s, Ghosn earned the nicknames "le cost killer" and "Mr. Fix It."[5] After the Nissan financial turnaround, he achieved celebrity status[6] and ranks as one of the 50 most famous men in global business and politics.[7] His life has been chronicled in a Japanese manga comic book.[8] Called "the ultimate rock star of the industry," he has been recruited to run at least two other automakers, General Motors and Ford Motor Co.[9]
Reef Al Shabnan and Wiiaam Al Salmi in that CUA video are beautiful women, Wiaam's smile is magnetic, and Reef's has a sexy body with a great shaped butt. A big butt. And they're both very good young women it looks like too. They appear to be empathetic towards other human beings and non-Muslims as well. And they seem to be in desire of a substance greater than themselves and greater than this earthly existence and world.
I'll cede that the Muslim faith puts more restraints on Muslim women than Christianity does on Christian women. A Muslim man can marry 4 wives I think it is. And a Muslim man can marry a non-Muslim. But a Muslim woman can only marry 1 man and it's my understanding that Muslim women are prohibited from marrying non-Muslim men.
I guess that means non-Muslim men (such as myself) have little to no chance of marrying beautiful and outstanding women like Reef and Wiaam unless such men convert to Islam.
Also, things are not always so back and white. Arguably, the small Muslim nation of Qatar takes better care of its women than the secular United States treats its own women.
I have to be honest with you, @Supine. I have no idea what you are trying to argue with me about. I stand by my point that a loose robe may be comfy and appropriate in some situations, but extremely impractical in others (like if you want to run or ride an escalator). People like pants for a reason, man. I would like to point out that the muslims you meet at a university, particularly the women who have been sent to America from abroad, are not really a representative sample of muslim women as a whole. For a family to send a female away to a western country to study, they are probably not only wealthy and *very* well-educated, they must have a very liberal, open-minded attitude by middle eastern standards, no matter what clothing they choose to wear. And I have no doubt that many women who choose to wear the hijab are intelligent, thoughtful, beautiful, and sincere in their faith.
But in my educated opinion, as a Middle Eastern person who speaks Arabic and lived in a ME country and have thought very hard about this issue for many years, the point of hijabs, burkas, abayas, etc., are about defining a woman by her sexuality and the male gaze and controlling that sexuality. It's the opposite side of the same coin as when women decide to walk around in ultra-tight pants and revealing cleavage. In both cases the women's dress or appearance is determined by what a male prefers. Males in the middle east want to cover up "their" women, or "protect" themselves from temptation. Women are pressured to consider male spiritual needs, or what a future husband wants, when making this decision. My interactions with people in these countries, and watching how women were treated, only confirmed this. Men in western societies want to see a show. And the gulf countries such as Qatar, Saudi Arabia, etc., spent a lot of money building mosques and sending out missionaries to spread THEIR version of Islam, a version that was foreign in many countries where women are now pressured to wear very restrictive, uncomfortable clothing. I'd also note that in your videos the women are wearing pretty comfortable looking hijabs (they're very loose, their hair shows). Ironically, it's not as restrictive or uncomfortable as what you see in other countries such as Egypt or Iran. Again, rich, famous, highly educated women don't have to deal with the same standards or misogyny in the ME as a typical woman. My cousin who lived for many years in the UAE pointed out that a woman there could very well take off her headscarf and adjust it in public, which is sort of unfathomable in other countries. Many of the women in those videos may walk around half the time without a hijab at all. There is a very wide range of practice in Islam.
The original post here was asking if headscarves could ever become popular in the US. And now that I've considered it, they very well could be, as long as women are choosing to make their clothing determinations based on what men want or don't want to see. I feel strongly as a Christian that God loves beauty and is happy when we are healthy and look our best. And all cultures have different types of beautiful, appropriate clothing.
I would suggest you read a bit about Arab feminism particularly in the early 20th century. It's really pretty fascinating and will give you more insight on these issues. "Feminism" is a dirty word to a lot of Christians but I embrace it because we have a long way to go before women are treated as equal human beings.
P.S. I don't know from experience, but I'm sure there's a pair of leather pants out there that is comfortable.
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). I need to get some silk neckties. But I'm not sure I would say when I have worn neckties they were comfortable per se. They didn't and don't bother me really but they're not like wearing a loose pair of pajamas. 
