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People simply refuse to answer a simple question because they're too afraid to so I will answer it for them:
Well, Thrillobyte, the simple truth is yes, you're right: the Bible does contradict itself on those two verses. I have no good explanation except that one is an Old Testament scripture and whoever wrote John 3:36 obviously wasn't aware of Psalm 30:5 or he never would have written something so blatantly contradictory. And I realize there are Bibliolaters in here who evade and obfuscate with accusations of, 'People who can't comprehend the meaning of the scriptures resort to blaspheming God and His Holy Word' and other such ridiculousness when all they're really doing is refusing to face the cold hard facts that the Bible does contradict itself left and right and upwards and downwards. But what can you expect when we find ourselves faced with such an obvious goof in the supposed "inerrant Word of God" that we feel like everything we have been programmed to believe all our lives has just rammed into a stone wall and crumpled like a cheap sardine can?
Now there's an honest answer to my question. Too bad the fundies are too gutless to admit it.
Thrillobyte, the answer is simple.
John 3:36 doesn't say God's wrath lasts forever. It says if you reject Christ, God's wrath remains on you. As I and others pointed out, it can and does only last until one comes to believe. Otherwise we would all be under wrath forever by default and no one could be saved.
But the fundies do not acknowledge, by their own interpretation, they too would be under God's wrath forever, for they too at one point rejected the Son.
Rev 15:1 is another verse in the new testament, that says God's wrath is completed and ends.
No, that's not what I said at all. I'm simply saying that your understanding of what any given bible passage means is no more or less a matter of interpretation than any other person's understanding. And your interpretation does not, by default, equal truth any more than any other person's does.
I would never think of you as swine for sincerely disagreeing with what I believe is truth. That's all I'm saying.
Make of that what you will, you bible-[inerrant]ist, you.
John 3:36 doesn't say God's wrath lasts forever. It says if you reject Christ, God's wrath remains on you. As I and others pointed out, it can and does only last until one comes to believe. Otherwise we would all be under wrath forever by default and no one could be saved.
But the fundies do not acknowledge, by their own interpretation, they too would be under God's wrath forever, for they too at one point rejected the Son.
Rev 15:1 is another verse in the new testament, that says God's wrath is completed and ends.
Yes, I'm with you on that. The disagreement enters at the event of the person's death.
Theoretically, [READ: from a Fundy's POV] we were all under God's wrath from the moment we were born because we were born with original sin and estranged from God. But some of us came to Christ and that wrath was taken away. At this point Fundies and universalists are still in agreement. But once an unsaved person dies, Fundies and Uni's part ways. We (Uni's) believe that God's wrath will eventually be lifted as the person comes to Christ in hell. From the Fundy's POV the wrath is eternal at this point despite any cries for mercy and willingness to come to Jesus that the unsaved might make from the fires of hell. Remember Mary K Baxter and her Divine Revelation in Hell where all of the people cried to Jesus as He was walking by and He said sorrowfully, "It's too late. You had your chance when My servant on earth begged you to come to Me but you wouldn't listen. You loved the pleasures of life more than you loved Me, so now you must suffer in these fires for eternity".
So I realize there is no time limit mentioned in the verse itself, but the Fundies just automatically place their own "eternal wrath" on the verse in order to make it fit with their dogma of eternal punishment in hell. Were they to acknowledge that Jesus never mentions a time limit on God's wrath in John 3:36 their dogma of eternal torment would fall like a house of cards. That, to them, would be more painful than the fires of hell. That's why you will always hear them screaming, "Context! Context!" their favorite buzzword, when it comes to explaining away verses like Psalm 30:5.
Remember Mary K Baxter and her Divine Revelation in Hell where all of the people cried to Jesus as He was walking by and He said sorrowfully, "It's too late. You had your chance when My servant on earth begged you to come to Me but you wouldn't listen. You loved the pleasures of life more than you loved Me, so now you must suffer in these fires for eternity".
Whenever I hear something like this or its equivalent . . . I have the irresistible desire to add "Na Na Na NaNa!!!"I am completely unable to understand how any grown, educated and enlightened human being in THIS century could possibly NOT see how ludicrous it is.
Whenever I hear something like this or its equivalent . . . I have the irresistible desire to add "Na Na Na NaNa!!!"I am completely unable to understand how any grown, educated and enlightened human being in THIS century could possibly NOT see how ludicrous it is.
Read some of the Fundy posts in here and it will literally "scare the hell out of you" how many of them truly buy Baxter's slop.
Yes, I'm with you on that. The disagreement enters at the event of the person's death.
Theoretically, [READ: from a Fundy's POV] we were all under God's wrath from the moment we were born because we were born with original sin and estranged from God. But some of us came to Christ and that wrath was taken away. At this point Fundies and universalists are still in agreement. But once an unsaved person dies, Fundies and Uni's part ways. We (Uni's) believe that God's wrath will eventually be lifted as the person comes to Christ in hell. From the Fundy's POV the wrath is eternal at this point despite any cries for mercy and willingness to come to Jesus that the unsaved might make from the fires of hell. Remember Mary K Baxter and her Divine Revelation in Hell where all of the people cried to Jesus as He was walking by and He said sorrowfully, "It's too late. You had your chance when My servant on earth begged you to come to Me but you wouldn't listen. You loved the pleasures of life more than you loved Me, so now you must suffer in these fires for eternity".
So I realize there is no time limit mentioned in the verse itself, but the Fundies just automatically place their own "eternal wrath" on the verse in order to make it fit with their dogma of eternal punishment in hell. Were they to acknowledge that Jesus never mentions a time limit on God's wrath in John 3:36 their dogma of eternal torment would fall like a house of cards. That, to them, would be more painful than the fires of hell. That's why you will always hear them screaming, "Context! Context!" their favorite buzzword, when it comes to explaining away verses like Psalm 30:5.
And that's just it - there is no time limit mentioned in John 3:36 - it is assumed to be talking about "eternal wrath" even though Psalm 30:5 & Rev 15:1 show the opposite.
John 3:36 says, Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them. (so says John, the apostle) So what I hear is those who reject Christ are cool. No problem? OK...? You'll be OK despite what scripture says.
Matt 10:28 says, Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (so says Jesus) No worries this is not for real (despite what Jesus says).
I love universalism. No worries however I live my life. I can be in total sin and spit in the face of God and I am still heaven bound.
This is SO COOL! No need to be right with God. I can live a life of selfish sin and debauchery and still go heaven! I love universalism. Sign me up. No need to accept Christ!!! Sweet.
Well I hope you guys are right, cuz I am going to devote my life to being in sin thinking that I am good heaven wise. What's more, I'm telling all of my friends and family they don't need to be right with God in this life. Heck Yea! Party till you drop! ***-in yea!
I love universalism. Much better than that stupid idea that you need to accept Jesus as savior and be right with God in this life.
That is a common sarcastic argument. " I am gonna sin and go to heaven". That speaks volumes at to the reason people become Christians. They do it to get to heaven. That is selfish. I don't just do what I please. In fact, being a Universalist ( I hate the term) has been more difficult than being a hell lover.
So please don't put us in a UR box and assume we just live this life of fornication and lying, because " I am going to heaven so I will do as I please".
That is a common sarcastic argument. " I am gonna sin and go to heaven". That speaks volumes at to the reason people become Christians. They do it to get to heaven. That is selfish. I don't just do what I please. In fact, being a Universalist ( I hate the term) has been more difficult than being a hell lover.
So please don't put us in a UR box and assume we just live this life of fornication and lying, because " I am going to heaven so I will do as I please".
Oh, DON'T take it away from them, it's the only thing they cling to!
There you go calling out Americans! Just because you are on extended stay in Italy doesn't mean you should rub it in! I do agree with you; American Christians are a thick-headed lot for the most part.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
It's true that Europeans are a lot more enlightened than most people in the US, which is why you don't see these idiot televangelists and their Beg-a-thons polluting the airwaves over there; that and the "eternal burning in hell" nonsense--it just doesn't enter their consciousness like it does ours.
Says something about them and about us.
Someone else also mentioned to me that we americans don't like symbolism. It's apparently too difficult. We want everything to be literal, direct, no need to reflect or ponder.
The same is true, imo, in art. There is very very little emphasis on art in the US. Everything must serve a specific, literal purpose, and anything that is "interpretive" or "subjective" or "introspective" is to be cast aside.
It's true that there aren't many (if any) "beg-a-thons" here. But even if there were, I disagree with the idea that anything spiritual should have a price tag on it. As Jesus said, "freely you have received (from God/Me), freely give (to others)."
I have a feeling that same phrase has been corrupted by some "evangelists" to be interpreted as, "freely you have received (from me), freely give (your money to me)."
So I realize there is no time limit mentioned in the verse itself, but the Fundies just automatically place their own "eternal wrath" on the verse in order to make it fit with their dogma of eternal punishment in hell. Were they to acknowledge that Jesus never mentions a time limit on God's wrath in John 3:36 their dogma of eternal torment would fall like a house of cards. That, to them, would be more painful than the fires of hell. That's why you will always hear them screaming, "Context! Context!" their favorite buzzword, when it comes to explaining away verses like Psalm 30:5.
They also put an expiration date on the first part of John 3:36. Whosoever believes when "it's too late" will NOT receive eternal life. This in spite of the fact that "God's mercy endures forever" (or to the ages of the ages).
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