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The instant salvation you want to mention only applies for those that have a minute or two left before death.
And there is no flesh in the Eucharist. It is the essence of resurrected Jesus.
You're not being consistent here. On one hand, you say that the "flesh and blood" that the passage tells us that Jesus is referring to the Eucharist. On the other hand, this passage clearly says that to do so means we have eternal life.
So, if you are going to be consistent here, you MUST conclude that this either:
1) Is NOT the eucharist in the passage
or
2) Is the eucharist, and to eat of it means that you have eternal life.
Text within context establishes what is being stated..
Forget everything you have learned in the past, and read the passage just being honest with yourself..
John 6
22 The day following, when the people which stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was none other boat there, save that one whereinto his disciples were entered, and that Jesus went not with his disciples into the boat, but that his disciples were gone away alone;
23 (Howbeit there came other boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they did eat bread, after that the Lord had given thanks
24 When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus.
25 And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?
26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
It's clear from the context as well as other passages that "eating" and "drinking" of JESUS is a spiritualizing of the concept. The same message is being stated at the last supper with the breaking and eating of the wine and bread symbolizing both the blood shed for sins and the body broken for us (through His stripes we are healed Isaiah 53). It's clear that it is talking about a continuous eating, drinking or COMMUNION with God through Jesus Christ.
The key word is Communion which in the Greek is Koinonia.. It is talking about a relationship through Christ's sacrifice.
Catholisicm has made the same mistake as the unbelievers in this passage.. They interpreted this as the physical man actually eating something, but what God is talking about is FELLOWSHIP through Jesus Christ. ..
One of the most powerful words outside of forgiveness is the word Koinonia. It is talking about that restored relationship between God and Man through Jesus Christ. It glorifies God when we all gather together in remembrance of Jesus Christ in what God's done for us in Him. We sing praises to God in Christ and worship Him in His holiness praying to work in our lives to make us more like Jesus.
It is about producing FRUIT.. where God works in and through the believer unto the Glory of God.
Many I'm afraid are taking the Eucharist as an empty religious activity without and true relationship with Jesus. God is not glorified in this, and I do not believe He accepts it.
It is also well confirmed that this practice of "Transubstantiation" has historically been the practice of the Pagan priests.. I think it's well established that Paganism has infiltrated the Vatican.
God is not pleased with Pagan worship. I believe Catholicism is a Pagan Relgion mascerading around using Christian names to infiltrate God's true church deceiving the simple..
But the Word says if the blind lead the blind they both shall fall into the ditch (Proverbs..)
Text within context establishes what is being stated..
Forget everything you have learned in the past, and read the passage just being honest with yourself..
John 6
22 The day following, when the people which stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was none other boat there, save that one whereinto his disciples were entered, and that Jesus went not with his disciples into the boat, but that his disciples were gone away alone;
23 (Howbeit there came other boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they did eat bread, after that the Lord had given thanks
24 When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus.
25 And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?
26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
It's clear from the context as well as other passages that "eating" and "drinking" of JESUS is a spiritualizing of the concept. The same message is being stated at the last supper with the breaking and eating of the wine and bread symbolizing both the blood shed for sins and the body broken for us (through His stripes we are healed Isaiah 53). It's clear that it is talking about a continuous eating, drinking or COMMUNION with God through Jesus Christ.
The key word is Communion which in the Greek is Koinonia.. It is talking about a relationship through Christ's sacrifice.
Catholisicm has made the same mistake as the unbelievers in this passage.. They interpreted this as the physical man actually eating something, but what God is talking about is FELLOWSHIP through Jesus Christ. ..
One of the most powerful words outside of forgiveness is the word Koinonia. It is talking about that restored relationship between God and Man through Jesus Christ. It glorifies God when we all gather together in remembrance of Jesus Christ in what God's done for us in Him. We sing praises to God in Christ and worship Him in His holiness praying to work in our lives to make us more like Jesus.
It is about producing FRUIT.. where God works in and through the believer unto the Glory of God.
Many I'm afraid are taking the Eucharist as an empty religious activity without and true relationship with Jesus. God is not glorified in this, and I do not believe He accepts it.
It is also well confirmed that this practice of "Transubstantiation" has historically been the practice of the Pagan priests.. I think it's well established that Paganism has infiltrated the Vatican.
God is not pleased with Pagan worship. I believe Catholicism is a Pagan Relgion mascerading around using Christian names to infiltrate God's true church deceiving the simple..
But the Word says if the blind lead the blind they both shall fall into the ditch (Proverbs..)
Very good posts. I will try to answer individually later on. I will say it is gratifying to see some folks that can see the allegory in the Bible. It is wise not to take the words literally, particularly when the writers of the Bible used the term demons and Satan. Always remember they are talking about the evil within us.
In any event here are the NT passages:
Quote:
Matthew 26:26-29
King James Version (KJV)
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
Some may choose to pay little attention to this because this is what the RCC does every day at mass. Nevertheless, it is there in the KJB and this was highly important to the very first early first generation of Christians. Ancient first century writings such as The Didache (The Teachings of the 12 Apostles) talk about the Eucharist. This is not a new invention or something copied from the Romans.
Obviously the idea of bread and wine comes from the Jewish tradition, however, for Jews this is not communion. Since Jesus was a Jew he did what Jews did. We cannot forget that Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism.
Here is Mark:
Quote:
Mark 14:22-24
King James Version (KJV)
22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
Basically, the same thing. I believe there is allegory in Jesus words because in Jewish tradition the bread (or body) is the essence of the Torah. Jesus wants the disciples to take the essence of whom he is, but there is no cannibalism involved. This is about believing in Jesus.
And there is a clear command to "do this in memory of me", that is different from the breaking of the bread Jews did in biblical times.
Quote:
Luke 22
King James Version (KJV)
19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
Again, the bread is Jesus body (or his works) and according to Jewish tradition he wants this bread to become one in the flesh with the disciples.
According to the Jews: "... The Torah is clothed in the soul and intellect of a person, and is absorbed in them, and is called 'bread' and 'food' of the soul.
In John 6:51-57 if one takes the words literally it sounds like cannibalism, but it is not. Jesus is talking about what he represents and what his message is. This is how Jews transmitted the Torah to others.
When a person takes communion the wafer looks the same and the change is not evident to the eyes as this is a purely mystical connection with the essence of the resurrected Jesus. And this is exactly what Jesus wanted us to do.
Very good posts. I will try to answer individually later on. I will say it is gratifying to see some folks that can see the allegory in the Bible. It is wise not to take the words literally, particularly when the writers of the Bible used the term demons and Satan. Always remember they are talking about the evil within us.
In any event here are the NT passages:
Some may choose to pay little attention to this because this is what the RCC does every day at mass. Nevertheless, it is there in the KJB and this was highly important to the very first early first generation of Christians. Ancient first century writings such as The Didache (The Teachings of the 12 Apostles) talk about the Eucharist. This is not a new invention or something copied from the Romans.
Obviously the idea of bread and wine comes from the Jewish tradition, however, for Jews this is not communion. Since Jesus was a Jew he did what Jews did. We cannot forget that Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism.
Here is Mark:
Basically, the same thing. I believe there is allegory in Jesus words because in Jewish tradition the bread (or body) is the essence of the Torah. Jesus wants the disciples to take the essence of whom he is, but there is no cannibalism involved. This is about believing in Jesus.
And there is a clear command to "do this in memory of me", that is different from the breaking of the bread Jews did in biblical times.
Again, the bread is Jesus body (or his works) and according to Jewish tradition he wants this bread to become one in the flesh with the disciples.
According to the Jews: "... The Torah is clothed in the soul and intellect of a person, and is absorbed in them, and is called 'bread' and 'food' of the soul.
In John 6:51-57 if one takes the words literally it sounds like cannibalism, but it is not. Jesus is talking about what he represents and what his message is. This is how Jews transmitted the Torah to others.
When a person takes communion the wafer looks the same and the change is not evident to the eyes as this is a purely mystical connection with the essence of the resurrected Jesus. And this is exactly what Jesus wanted us to do.
God created us ultimately for fellowship. He wants a relationship with us.. It's a BEAUTIFUL reality, but there is a problem..
Our SINS have separated us from our Creator God. He made us in His image after His likeness but WE MARRED THAT IMAGE.. JESUS has restored it through the cross and resurrection.. GOD has reconciled Man to Him and has now restored that relationship.
To be in fellowship with God is to "abide" in Christ as God sees us "in Christ". To abide in Christ is to have fellowship with God, and this is the entire reason for living, but God does not want us to ONLY have fellowship with Him.. He wants to have fellowship with EACH OTHER in Christ... It pleases Him to see us divided creatures all gathered together in Christ's name and remembrance singing songs of Worship and Praise to Him truly loving one another. TO BE UNITED IN CHRIST AND EACH OTHER IN LOVE IS TRULY COMMUNION. God's Spirit just pours out and it is TRULY HEAVEN ON EARTH when all are walking in the Spirit of Christ.
Because God wants us to LOVE one another.. << in the flesh it is impossible really .. only through God's work in the Spirit can we truly love with that selfless love that is talked about in Corinthians 13 (putting OTHERS NEEDS before OUR NEEDS).
So I think it is clear the "eating" and "drinking" of the Sacrifice of Christ is talking about that access that one has through Faith in the Blood of JESUS and Him as our High Priest to access Fellowship with the Father.. because now the Sin issue has been dealt with through the Son..
If we DO NOT HAVE FELLOWSHIP WITH THE FATHER THROUGH THE SON.. JESUS may just say "I never knew you" "depart from me you worker of iniquity."(paraphrase Matt 7) It's clear those in Matthew 7 NEVER partook and "ate" or "drank" of the body/bread or blood/wine/sacrifice of JESUS Christ on Calvary..
These folks attempted to go AROUND FELLOWSHIP WITH GOD THROUGH Faith in JESUS CHRIST, and have decided to approach Him with THEIR ritualistic Religious tradition. These are clearly the professors but not the possessors. It is possible and heavily debated, that this also would include those that have received Christ as Savior but not as Lord not producing fruit to harvest.. ie.. while receiving His Spirit, the cares and riches of this life and the deceitfulness of riches quenched the Word and they brought no fruit to harvest (Matt 13 paraphrase).. In this view, they did not continuously eat and drink of Jesus Christ.. they fell away..and ultimately were cast out.
These folks attempted to go AROUND FELLOWSHIP WITH GOD THROUGH Faith in JESUS CHRIST, and have decided to approach Him with THEIR ritualistic Religious tradition. These are clearly the professors but not the possessors.
There are and have been many Eucharistic miracles.
Anyone can search them.
In ordinary circumstances, however, Christ's body and blood must naturally maintain
the specie in which they were originally given by Christ at the Last Supper
so that we may partake worthily.
I haven't read a lot of your posts Snowball7, so help me out. Are you saying the Eucharistic elements are one or two species after the consecration?
I am not sure about eating his flesh. It is of course symbolism. Nobody really eats it. What I don't understand is why people think only the priest can do it. You can take the Eucharist at home and never go to church. Why can I just pray like a priest does? Or course I can. The catholic and Protestants alike, take the pastor/father and bestow on them a power and authority that we as Christians have. You hear it all the time " I'm gonna have the pastor/father pray for me" you can just ask a Christian friend to do the same. God does not favor some priest. If you think the Eucharist is in the NT as the way the Catholics do it, that is fine for you. But if you think only some priest can serve it, then you are wrong.
Don't feel bad, even the Protestants have communion and usually have the pastor or elder administer it. But that is not in the bible. It is just tradition.
I am not sure about eating his flesh. It is of course symbolism. Nobody really eats it. What I don't understand is why people think only the priest can do it. You can take the Eucharist at home and never go to church. Why can I just pray like a priest does? Or course I can. The catholic and Protestants alike, take the pastor/father and bestow on them a power and authority that we as Christians have. You hear it all the time " I'm gonna have the pastor/father pray for me" you can just ask a Christian friend to do the same. God does not favor some priest. If you think the Eucharist is in the NT as the way the Catholics do it, that is fine for you. But if you think only some priest can serve it, then you are wrong.
Don't feel bad, even the Protestants have communion and usually have the pastor or elder administer it. But that is not in the bible. It is just tradition.
You propose a form of Christianity that is highly individual where a person does whatever she or he feels like doing. A Christianity with no tradition of any kind. That is fine if it works for you. However, many Christians thrive on traditions, ceremony, reverence, rituals, weddings, baptisms, religious services, or the mass.
IN the Catholic Church there is something called Apostolic Succession that goes all the way back to Peter and the Apostles. Jesus put the Apostles in charge of his Church and gave them the power to perform in his name. At mass the priest repeats the words of Jesus during the Last Supper and the parishioners have communion. The solemnity of a Catholic Church and the priest is not easily replicated elsewhere.
However, you are free to do as you wish if you do not agree with a Christian sacrament that goes back to the first century.
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