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I am sure he had the opportunity. I have never heard of a jail or prison in America that does not have Christians visit many times a week.
Man's law is not always right. Why would you think Jesus would be bound by man's laws today? That does not seem logical.
Please note that my sentence which you quoted was written with a "sarcasm" icon behind it. I find it ironic that politically one party that claims to "represent" Christian views are so very quick to incarcerate children under 12 for their misdeeds.
Therefore, it would appear to be inconsistent to say that children are unable to make a decision for Christ, but are able to be found guilty of first or second degree murder. And if they are spiritually incapable of making a decision for Christ, how does one justify that they are mentally/morally qualified to face criminal punishment as adults.
I'm not pointing to an answer, I'm pointing to the inconsistency in which many people deal with difficult questions regarding human behavior.
Please note that my sentence which you quoted was written with a "sarcasm" icon behind it. I find it ironic that politically one party that claims to "represent" Christian views are so very quick to incarcerate children under 12 for their misdeeds.
Therefore, it would appear to be inconsistent to say that children are unable to make a decision for Christ, but are able to be found guilty of first or second degree murder. And if they are spiritually incapable of making a decision for Christ, how does one justify that they are mentally/morally qualified to face criminal punishment as adults.
I'm not pointing to an answer, I'm pointing to the inconsistency in which many people deal with difficult questions regarding human behavior.
I don't see any Christians saying this boy is not old enough to understand and accept Christ. What makes you think one has to be 11 or 12 to do that?
No, it's the problem with Heaven or Hell theology which makes that "point of decision" all important as opposed to a development of awareness of community with man and God which can continue after death if necessary.
Originally Posted by nateswift No, it's the problem with Heaven or Hell theology which makes that "point of decision" all important as opposed to a development of awareness of community with man and God which can continue after death if necessary.
You believe in and worship a god who apparently at random creates eternal souls and assigns some to eternal bliss and the majority to eternal torture and I'm the one with problems?
My opinion is:
The day a child recognizes his/her right to decide their own wants becomes accountable.
In the story of the bible I see Adam and Eve as (Babes) little children as not having any knowledge of good and evil.
The day they come into that arena is the day consequences began.
It is that day they become as, the bible puts it, "as one of us" gods.
It then becomes by necessity to be obedient to the good in a world of vanity.(Evil)
But because we are a lesser god, meaning without any power to be totally obedient, we fall short of that goal.
So the struggle begins. Trials and tribulations are lased through out one's lives and the only hope of ever attaining complete obedience,is for God Himself to provide it.
That BEING THE CASE, humanity is offered grace for free.
Exoneration, not from death of the body,but death of the spirit, without exceptions.
Accountability goes way beyond getting saved. It means making a determination about how we govern ourselves in this life as well. I think Vizio's point that a child might be "saved" at four but turn into a hellion at 14 and make him wonder, could equally be viewed about a child who is a murderer at six, but may be a model citizen at 16. We MUST deal with the problems in THIS world, but I think I'll let God deal with the spiritual difficulties with regard to age of accountability.
I took Vizio's point to lead to the what people that hold Calvinistic do .... making coming to faith a gift of man's ability rather than a gift of God by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Since then it becomes man's gift in their view, such people then take for themselves other attributes that God does like judging the heart whether they were true believers in the first place. So what comes out of that is "age of accountability".
I don't see any Christians saying this boy is not old enough to understand and accept Christ. What makes you think one has to be 11 or 12 to do that?
What makes you think one shouldn't be 11 or 12 before making a decision?
My point in quoting the stories of "man's view" of criminal activity vs "man view" of spiritual activity is often at odds with one another. Vizio points out in post#5
Quote:
I would say that a kid's ability to grasp the concepts of the Gospel vary greatly by the child. For some, it's 13. For others it might be 7..or 5...or even earlier
So would you rule that if a child is old enough to accept Christ, he/she is old enough to serve a life prison term? Do or should "men's view" of spiritual activity coincide with our view of them in terms of criminal activity? If we don't select an "age" at which at least the accountability of criminal activity is determined, how do we pass judgment equally under the law?
I took Vizio's point to lead to the what people that hold Calvinistic do .... making coming to faith a gift of man's ability rather than a gift of God by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Since then it becomes man's gift in their view, such people then take for themselves other attributes that God does like judging the heart whether they were true believers in the first place. So what comes out of that is "age of accountability".
Twin, I don't often agree with some of your postings, but the highlighted portion above is quite true, and I will rep you for that.
What makes you think one shouldn't be 11 or 12 before making a decision?
I don't think that. Never said I did.
Quote:
So would you rule that if a child is old enough to accept Christ, he/she is old enough to serve a life prison term? Do or should "men's view" of spiritual activity coincide with our view of them in terms of criminal activity? If we don't select an "age" at which at least the accountability of criminal activity is determined, how do we pass judgment equally under the law?
I don't know if I would link the two together. First of all you and I cannot know for certainty when a child has reached that age and acted upon it. This is not something we even need to determine. We just present the gospel in a way they can understand and let God take care of the rest. After all there is nothing more we can do.
As for the other I am not sure how it relates to the OP. I don't think we can set an age that applies to all in all situations. Even some adults are not capable of understanding right and wrong due to mental limitations. That is something that must be decided by someone with the responsibility to do so in each case as best they can.
We hear and preach if someone has not accepted Jesus Christ as their savior they are not saved and will not get eternal life. I remember watching TV preachers say by 13yrs old a child needs to make that decision and some people think that is too young as they child might not know what they are doing and some think that decision should be made sooner than that.
Assuming they don't suffer from any mental issues and can think and comprehend fine, at what age should a child/teenager to young adult be held accountable for making that decision to accept Jesus and become saved?
I didn't respond earlier because the question doesn't really make sense to me from my frame of reference. I don't believe that "accepting Jesus as one's Savior" -- regardless of the age at which it happens -- guarantees instantaneous salvation for anybody. In my church, we do not baptize infants. First of all, we don't believe that infants who die will be punished because a man and a woman supposedly ate a piece of forbidden fruit 6000 years ago. Secondly, the Bible almost always mentions baptism in conjunction with repentance, and an infant has no sins to repent of or the ability to make an informed decision. We baptize children at the age of eight because we believe that is the age by which a child can understand the difference between right and wrong and can choose to want to follow Jesus Christ. Salvation, to me, is not a one-time event that takes place the moment a person says, "I accept Jesus!" It comes as a result of faith in the Lord, Jesus Christ, repentence for one's sins, baptism for the remission of those sins and as a means of entering into a covenant relationship with our Savior, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, and enduring as His faithful follower to the very end.
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Absolutely!
My thoughts exactly.
