Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Hi all! My handle is "Croref" (short for Cross Reference) I am new to this forum and looking for objective debaters of opposite persuasion than my own on any given subject. I like to ask questions that stimulate thinking even within those who might agree with me. __And yes I am not a newby to the scriptures and always looking to challenge, be challenged and be taught by others of honest persuasion. Thanks in advance for putting up with me. . . OMT: I do so appreciate the one who doesn't go circular; who can admit when he is wrong or has been adjusted/rectified in his/her understanding. Be assured I will exhibited the same disposition . .
I want to begin at the beginning by asking: "Where in the scriptures does it say God's Grace is free __without cost? "Unmerited"?
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. 19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
There are many other passages.. The Bible talks about "receiving" the Grace of God.. That it cannot be earned or merited..
Romans 5:14-16 KJV
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Romans 11:6
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
If we are working to receive God's Grace through the Works of the Law, God is looking at it as wages and not a free gift.. There is a point where it can be an offense..
Like someone just gives you a Mercedes bends,, but you want to give them a buck..
Now compare this with GOD giving His Son.. and we want to give him a dollar to "deserve" it.
This is why it is a heresy to add MAN to the Gospel..
The Bible says that the Cross is an offense to Man.. ultimately to our PRIDE.. We want to have God accept us outside of Christ alone..
Our flesh wants to have merit before God in "getting us" to heaven..
But there won't be a bunch of Saints giving each other High Fives for being Righteous enough in Heaven..
There will ONLY be a bunch of wrenched SINNERS saved by the Grace of God ALONE though JESUS Christ. The ONLY thing we will be doing is PRAISING GOD for HIS KINDNESS in NOT GIVING US WHAT WE DESERVE..
Damnation..
Luke 8:17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.
1 Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
Who is going to raise their hand and say they are worthy? Not me.. It will be a terrifying day in the day of Judgment.. when the inner Man is exposed for all to see.. not only the works but the INTENT OF THE HEART..
Sinful Man is in BIG TROUBLE if we do not have God's unmerited FORGIVENESS through the blood of Christ for our trespasses against Him WE HAVE NO HOPE.
There are many other passages.. The Bible talks about "receiving" the Grace of God.. That it cannot be earned or merited..
Romans 5:14-16 KJV
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Romans 11:6
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
If we are working to receive God's Grace through the Works of the Law, God is looking at it as wages and not a free gift.. There is a point where it can be an offense..
Like someone just gives you a Mercedes bends,, but you want to give them a buck..
Now compare this with GOD giving His Son.. and we want to give him a dollar to "deserve" it.
This is why it is a heresy to add MAN to the Gospel..
But I asked for scripture to support what I asked?
OMT: "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. Revelation 20:12 (ESV) Folk not going to be judged by their works for their salvation, you say?
But I asked for scripture to support what I asked?
OMT: "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. Revelation 20:12 (ESV) Folk not going to be judged by their works for their salvation, you say?
There are two resurrections.. one for the "living" and one for the "dead"..
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Revelation 20:4-6 (KJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Those in the first resurrection are those that are Saved by the Grace of God alone through their Faith in JESUS Christ...They may have done righteous things, but that is not what saved them from eternal death in Gehenna.
Those in the Judgment you've posted are of the resurrection of the dead unto Damnation.. Judged according to their works.. to receive lesser or greater condemnation.. They did not receive the Grace of God.. the free pardon for their rebellion in forgiveness of sins.. through the blood of Jesus Christ..
OMT: "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. Revelation 20:12 (ESV) Folk not going to be judged by their works for their salvation, you say?
That depends on whether the book of life spoken of here is the Lamb's Book of Life, remember the reference of the book of life made by Moses?...
Last edited by Miss Blue; 02-15-2014 at 02:02 PM..
Reason: orphaned quote
There are two resurrections.. one for the "living" and one for the "dead"..
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
I think Yeshua is speaking of those spiritually dead...Notice the bolded...
Quote:
Those in the Judgment you've posted are of the resurrection of the dead unto Damnation.. Judged according to their works.. to receive lesser or greater condemnation.. They did not receive the Grace of God.. the free pardon for their rebellion in forgiveness of sins.. through the blood of Jesus Christ..
to receive lesser or greater condemnation?...Sounds like Pagan Greek levels of Hell or Chinese multiple Hells...
But I asked for scripture to support what I asked?
OMT: "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. Revelation 20:12 (ESV) Folk not going to be judged by their works for their salvation, you say?
You asked, '"Where in the scriptures does it say God's Grace is free __without cost? "Unmerited"?
He gave you scripture which answered your question.
Grace by the Bible's own definition is free.
Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Grace is presented in contrast to works. If you have to work for it, to earn it, then it is not by grace.
Grace is God's attitude and policy concerning man.
Salvation is stated in Ephesians 2:8-9 to be by grace through faith, and not by works.
The fact that eternal salvation is by grace through faith does not contradict the fact that Everyone will be judged for their works.
The works of the eternally saved believer will be judged or evaluated at the judgment seat of Christ to determine if they are works which are acceptable to God for which the believer will be rewarded, or whether his works are not acceptable to God and will be burned up, while the believer himself is saved as per 1 Corinthians 3:12-15.
Regarding the unbeliever, since he did not rely on the finished work of Christ on the Cross in paying the penalty for his sins, he by default is depending on his own works to save him, and will be shown at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) that his works are not acceptable to God. By dying without receiving Christ as Savior and therefore never being credited with God's own righteousness, the unbeliever has only his own righteousness from which come his works, to stand on. And God can only reject the unbeliever's works.
Isaiah 64:6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Titus 3:5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
You must compare Scripture with Scripture in order to properly understand what the Bible teaches about a given doctrine.
But I asked for scripture to support what I asked?
OMT: "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. Revelation 20:12 (ESV) Folk not going to be judged by their works for their salvation, you say?
It seems the only book that matters, is the Book of Life. All that is written here is a person's name, and not their works. (As it's said anyone who was not written in this book, was cast into the lake of fire) So how can one's name be written in the Book of Life? Jesus said the disciples names were written in the Book of Life. So to be written there, all you do is simply receive Jesus.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
