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Most definitely! Although they would deny this. In reality, however, the Father God they believe in is the god with which we have to do. He is god over this planet. There are other gods over other planets. A Mormon man can attain to godhood and be himself a god over a planet. "As man is, god once was; as god is man may become." There is nothing Christian about this religion.
Preterist
But then again I could easily believe in Yggdrasil and Dionysis
I am an intelligent celt
I still believe in god which brings me to this story.
Mormons came 3 times
the third time a prophet had just turned up
They had already given me their book
They, meaning him!!! said And is our prophet your prophet Stuart!
A moment and another moment
I responded---hold on that is your belief isn't it?
He, the dominant partner, jumps back.......what is your belief Stuart.
Quick, quick, real quick. bloody quick!
'Peace on Earth, goodwill to all men'
Just as quick he/him responds 'not likely though is it!' -----
CULT!----- lost!
They never came back.
In the moment he admitted in the cult my belief in Christ was saved.
Where in the bible does it state that a Morman cannot be a god over another planet?
And if they believe in Christ, and believe that they are saved by His blood, that their sins are washed away by His sacrifice, doesn't that make them a Christian? They also teach that everyone should witness. And they feel an obligation to do exactly that. They even baptise.
So looking at all that, how can anyone say that there is nothing Christian about the Mormans?
Zimbabwe,
I accept your apology. I try to state the LDS doctrines based on published statements and what is found in, as you termed "the pillers of faith", as accurately as possible. For example:
post #60 The Articles of Faith of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved,by obedience to the lawsand ordinances of the Gospel.
Yes, I agree with you that you honestly believe that " I feel you [twin] probably did it out of lack of full understanding of what we believe." I can admit, that I don't fully understand. Do I fully know what laws are considered required (some vs all) for all mankind to be saved..... no. But with the same honesty, I feel that many Mormons do not fully understand what the LDS Church offically teaches either.
But (if the artical of faith of LDS that all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws.... is to be considered true) when compared to the Bible-----
— but the righteouswilllive by his faith -Habakkuk 2:4[written @700bc]
— For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faithfrom first to last, just as it is written: "The righteouswilllive by faith." Romans 1:17
— Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteouswilllive by faith." Galations 3:11
— But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him." Hebrews 10:38
— But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. Romans 3:21
there will be those who will come to one of the following conclusion:
that the Bible verse written @700 bc by the Prophet Habakkuk revealed by Jehovah, quoted by Paul, conflicts the Artical of Faith.
How one reacts to this is based on what ultimatly will be considered THE truth, IMO God doesn't mislead his followers for some 2500yrs (time between Prophet Habakkuk and JS revelations) and that God reveals two opposing views for salvation... A God that is the same yesterday, today, and forever....
I also appreciate your sharing your beliefs. Please tell me if post #60 is accurate...
Twin:
You've switched horses on me. I thought we were talking about the Godhead. I am not sure what post #60 is talking about, except that there is a lot of division in the Christian world which I think is self-evident.
You are wrong that most Mormons do not know what their church teaches. I don't know if there is another church that teaches its doctrine with more consistently than the Mormon church. For example, my 16 year old son goes to formal religious instruction everyday, begining at 6:10 am. We have articles of faith that are so accessable that even you have access to them.
Does your church have articles of Faith? If not you may be tempted to say you have the Bible as your article of faith. The Bible is not always as sef-evident as you think, else there would not be 2000 separate Christian denominations in America alone.
With regards to Habakukk, I agree with the prophet. I also agree with the rest of the Bible, a part of which says:
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Eccl 12:13)
zimbabwe, would you agree that the only article of faith that we really need is that we believe in Jesus Christ and His saving grace? The only other thing we need to believe in is the Bible and what is contained therein. As far as I can see, it's all pretty simple. Is it really necessary for man to compile a set of ideals that may or may not be relevant to ones salvation?
Last edited by urbanlemur; 01-22-2008 at 07:09 AM..
Reason: additional sentence
Twin:
You are wrong that most Mormons do not know what their church teaches. I don't know if there is another church that teaches its doctrine with more consistently than the Mormon church. For example, my 16 year old son goes to formal religious instruction everyday, begining at 6:10 am. We have articles of faith that are so accessable that even you have access to them.
Seminary [translation for non-Mormons: the early morning formal religious instruction] only shows that Mormons spend a lot of time teaching their religion. It doesn't prove that instruction is consistent.
I think when non-Mormons say that Mormons don't know what their church teaches, they are usually referring to statements by early church leaders that aren't currently taught/emphasized in the church.
There are two (in my mind, conflicting) philosophies I've heard. One is that "the words of our leaders are the words of the Lord to us today." Proponents of this line of thought counsel Mormons to keep the latest conference edition of the Ensign near their scriptures and study it as if it were scripture.
The other philosophy is that "the doctrine of the church is found in the standard works [translation for non-Mormons: Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenents, and the Pearl of Great Price] and any other statements by church leaders are just opinion." This argument comes up a lot when Mormons are faced with quotes from Brigham Young.
Frequently non-Mormons feel that if you believe in modern-day revelation, you have to stand by the statements of your previous prophets. Many Mormons are unfamiliar with certain of these statements (because those teachings are not emphasized in the church today or are dismissed as opinions and not official doctrine). This can lead non-Mormons to decide that "Mormons don't know what their church teaches."
So I think it's a case of each side being correct about what they are talking about, but they aren't talking about the same thing.
Zimbabwe,
Sorry if it seemed that I switched horses. I understood that when you asked about my understanding about the "trinity" of God, my answer was based soley on what the Bible has revealed about it, so I thought that was what you were asking about. As Urbanlemur once posted, that anything outside of what the Bible revealed is speculative upon my part and will be subject to error. What the balance of the post was to expand on the opinion of my not fully understanding what the LDS teaches. Let me then finish my extortation on the "tri-unity".
I'm sorry this will be little long, please take the time to read
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Verses that speak of Gods tri-unity "trinity" [singular person aspect]:
Deuteronomy 4:35 “You were shown these things so that you might know that the LORD is God; besides him there is no other. "
Others verses that are similiar: 1 Kings 8:16 Isaiah 44:8 Isaiah 45:5,6,14,18 Isaiah 45:22 Isaiah 46:9 Joel 2:27 Mark 12:32 Acts 4:12
SINGULAR GOD, But PLURAL REFERANCE TO HIMSELF
-- Genesis 1:26 "Let us make man in our own image"
-- Genesis 3:22 "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."
-- Genesis 11:7 "Let us go down and confuse their language."
-- Isaiah 6:8 "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?
Each time using the singular (because there is just one God) and the plural (because there are 3 persons) interchangeably, clearly indicating that there is more than one person in God.
Most direct verse speaking of the “Trinity”
Colossians 2:9 “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,”
The word used in Colossians "Diety" is the Greek word #G2316
G2316 [New Testament greek]
èåüò
theos theh'-os (pronounced)
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity;
figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very:—X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -
ward].
The word G2316 is from the NT greek word G2320:
G2320
èåüôçò
theoteôs theh-ot'-ace (pronounced)
From G2316; divinity (abstractly):—godhead
Beyond what I have written before, I can only go on by faith. God doesn't require us to understand this, only believe what he has already revealed from the Bible is the absolute truth.
I [and others] will maintain that the Bible is the only authoritative voice. That may put me in the "uncultured", "narrow minded", "your opinion", ect. category but so be it. I put my hope in Romans 10:17
"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." [the Bible...period] Romans 10:17
Short answer - yes. Long answer posted below (if you care to read that much)
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimbabwe
With regards to Habakukk, I agree with the prophet. I also agree with the rest of the Bible, a part of which says:
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Eccl 12:13)
The following verse (Eccl 12:14) For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil.
So what is the conclusion? (Eccl 12: 8-10)
"Meaningless! Meaningless!" says the Teacher. "Everything is meaningless!"
The Conclusion of the Matter
9 Not only was the Teacher wise, but also he imparted knowledge to the people. He pondered and searched out and set in order many proverbs. 10 The Teacher searched to find just the right words, and what he wrote was upright and true.
The Conclusion! If you are to base your worthiness on Eccl 12:13 Everything is meaningless! Why?!
"All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away." Isaiah 64:6
If Jesus is good only after "all you can do", then Jesus is no good to you;
because all our righteous acts are like filthy rages... which Jesus was not. Why would Jesus set an example of what you can not be?
Again, its how you view Jesus........ example or subsitute. Its one or the other, not some of both.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FOR THOSE WHO CARE----------------
The articles of faith ( view of scriptures)
Wisconsin Lutheran Ev. Lutheran Synod (WELS) Statement on Scripture I. Introduction
God reveals Himself to men primarily through His incarnate Son, whom He attests and presents to His Church through Scripture. The purpose of Scripture is to proclaim Christ as the Savior of sinners (Jn 5:39,46; Ac 10:43). All Scripture is written because of Christ and has a connection with the revelation of God in Christ, some passages directly, some more remotely. Every word of Scripture is therefore an organic part of the Scripture’s witness to Christ. And Scripture is the complete message of God to sinners. By it man is freed from carnal security and self-righteousness, is delivered from despair, and regains by faith the lost image of God. Gal 3:26; cf. 4:31; Jas 1:18; 1 Pe 1:23; Jn 8:31,32.
We reject the idea that the natural knowledge of God is sufficient to salvation or useful beyond the use made of it in Scripture (Ro 1:20; 2:1,14-16; Ac 17:22,23). The revelation of God in nature and conscience is insufficient for salvation because man by reason of his fall is so constituted that he persistently perverts and distorts the revelation given to him by God and refuses to acknowledge or to submit to the God who thus reveals Himself. And man pursuing this perverted course is either led to feel secure in his self-righteousness or is driven to despair.
We reject the idea that tradition is a source of revelation. Cf. Mt 15:3-6; Col 2:8.
We reject the idea that other new sources or norms of divine revelation besides Scripture are to be expected. Heb 1:1,2; Mt 28:19,20; Gal 1:8,9.
II. The Inspiration of Scripture
We believe and teach that all Scripture (that is, all the canonical books of the Old and New Testaments) is given by inspiration of God and is in its entirety, in its parts, and in its very words inspired by the Holy Spirit. God revealed Himself personally and directly to such men as Adam, Abraham, Moses, and the prophets. Some of these He called to transmit His message to men orally or in writing. Their message was thus not their own, but God’s Word. They were moved by the Holy Spirit, so that He is the true Author of their every word. Inspiration means, then, that mighty act of God whereby He spoke His Word in the words of men and made them the effective and final vehicle of His revelation. Hence these words do not merely inform us concerning God’s past action; they also convey God’s action now. 1 Th 2:13; 2 Pe 1:19-21; 2 Ti 3:15-17; 1 Co 2:13; Jer 23:29; Ro 1:16,17.
In giving men His message by inspiration, God had men express His Word in their own language (Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek), and in their own style (personal, historical, poetic, oratorical). (Cf. the superscription on the cross, Mt 27:37; Mk 15:26; Lk 23:38; Jn 19:19,20.) Thus the holy writers felt personally responsible for every word they wrote (cf. 2 Co 7:8), while they at the same time knew that their words were given by the Holy Spirit (1 Co 2:12,13).
We reject as a distortion of the true conception of verbal inspiration any idea which makes the act of inspiration a mere mechanical dictation.
We condemn and reject any and all teachings and statements that would limit the inerrancy and sufficiency of Scripture, or that deny the divine authorship of certain portions of Scripture. Inspiration applies not only to such statements as speak directly of Christ, but also to such as may seem very remote (e.g., in the field of history, geography, and nature). For since God is the Lord of history and has revealed Himself by acts in history and has in the person of His Son actually entered into man’s history, the historical framework in which the Gospel message is set in Scripture is an essential part of the inspired Word just as much as the spiritual truths revealed in it.
We reject the idea that verbal inspiration is called into question by accidents in the transmission of the text and the resultant variants in the manuscripts. Inspiration pertains in the first instance to the original autographs of Scripture. But by His gracious providence God has given us such a fullness and variety of witnesses to the original text that Christian scholarship reproduces it with great fidelity. God has so watched over the transmission of the text that the variant readings nowhere affect the doctrines of Scripture. We gratefully acknowledge also that translations of Scripture, though not under particular inspiration, are by God’s providential care adequate vehicles of His revelation in the inspired Word. Heb 2:3; 1 Pe 1:25; Mk 13:31; Jn 17:20; Mt 28:19,20.
III. The Authority of Scripture
We believe and teach that God has given us His Holy Scripture to make us wise unto salvation through faith in Christ Jesus (2 Ti 3:13-17). We therefore confess Scripture to be the only, but all-sufficient foundation of our faith, the source of all our teachings, the norm of our conduct in life, and the infallible authority in all matters with which it deals. Lk 16:29-31; Dt 4:2; 13:1-5; Isa 8:20; Ac 26:22; Jn 10:35.
We believe and teach that where Scripture has not spoken decisively or is silent, differences of opinion may be held without violating Scripture or breaking the bonds of fellowship. Such matters fall into the area called “open questions.” Scripture itself must determine which questions are to be considered as open. The term “open questions” may legitimately be used where the Scripture language leaves open the precise scope of a passage, or where linguistic, textual or historical problems make the perception of the intended sense difficult. But where Scripture has spoken, there God has spoken, whether it be on a central dogma or on a peripheral point; where Scripture has not spoken, the matter must forever remain open. 1 Pe 4:11; Jer 23:22,23.
Scripture being the Word of God, it carries its own authority in itself and does not receive it by the approbation of the Church. The Canon, that is, that collection of books which is the authority for the Church, is not the creation of the Church. Rather, the Canon has, by a quiet historical process which took place in the worship life of the Church, imposed itself upon the Church by virtue of its own divine authority.
IV. The Interpretation of Scripture
Since Scripture is God’s Word, the interpretation of Scripture should not be regarded as merely or primarily an intellectual task. The true meaning of Scripture becomes clear for man in a given situation, not merely by a scrupulous study of Scripture and a careful analysis of the facts at issue, but rather by approaching Scripture in a spirit of repentance and faith which makes men obedient sons of God, who hear Scripture when it speaks as Law in all the rigidity of the Law, and when it speaks as Gospel in all the unconditional grace of the Gospel. 2 Co 4:3,4; 2 Ti 3:16,17; Gal 2:5; 5:3,6.
Scripture alone is to interpret Scripture. The hermeneutical rule that Scripture must be interpreted according to the rule, or the analogy, of faith means that the clear passages of Scripture, not any theological system or dogmatical summary of Bible doctrine, are to determine the interpretation. Seemingly obscure passages must not be interpreted so as to pervert or contradict clear passages. This means that every statement of Scripture must be understood in its native sense, according to grammar, context, and linguistic usage of the time. Where Scripture speaks historically, as for example in Genesis 1–3, it must be understood as speaking of literal, historical facts. Where Scripture speaks symbolically, metaphorically or metonymically, as for example in Revelation 20, it must be interpreted on these its own terms. Furthermore, since God spoke in the common language of men, expressions such as sunrise and sunset, the corners of the earth, etc., must not be viewed as intending to convey scientific information. Ps 119:105; 2 Pe 1:19; 2 Ti 3:15.
Since the same God speaks by the same creative energy of the same Holy Spirit throughout Scripture, the Old Testament and the New Testament are to be viewed as constituting an organic unity. This unity is to be understood, not as a simple equation of the two testaments with each other, but in the sense of Hebrews 1:1,2: “In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son.” Since the New Testament is the culminating revelation of God, it is decisive in determining the relation between the two testaments and the meaning of the Old Testament prophecies in particular; the meaning of a prophecy becomes known in full only from its fulfillment.
Since Scripture is in all its parts and in all its words the inspired Word of God, we reject and condemn any use of the phrase “totality of Scripture” which tends to abridge or annul the force of any clear passage of Scripture. Similarly we reject the use of any phrase which makes room for the idea that the Scripture as a whole may be regarded as the Word of God, though it in many details is regarded as only the words of men.
We reject and condemn “demythologizing” as a denial of the Word of God. Where Scripture records as historical facts those events and deeds which far surpass the ordinary experience of men, that record must be understood literally, as a record of facts; the miraculous and mysterious may not be dismissed as intended to have only a metaphorical or symbolical meaning.
Last edited by twin.spin; 01-22-2008 at 12:51 PM..
zimbabwe, would you agree that the only article of faith that we really need is that we believe in Jesus Christ and His saving grace? The only other thing we need to believe in is the Bible and what is contained therein. As far as I can see, it's all pretty simple. Is it really necessary for man to compile a set of ideals that may or may not be relevant to ones salvation?
Too many questions at once. Urban, you are right, it is not up to man to set up a list of ideals, but it is the Lord's perogative.
We believe all that God has revealed, all that he does now reveal, and that he will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God. (Sixth Article of Faith)
The heavens are not closed. God is not limited to the Bible, for there is no end to his works. This does not take away from the Bible in any measure. The Bible cannot be replaced. It is a miracle and a gift from God to man. Unfortunately, many of the philosohpies of man have crept into the Christian church and the Christian world is divided because of it. Wickedness is sweeping the world like a flood, and if there ever was a time for the Lord to send additional light and knowledge to his children it is now.
To begin with, the Trinity not defined in the Bible, according to the respected, non-Mormon, Harper’s Bible Dictionary. Futhermore, the New International Dictionary of the Bible says, “There is no systematic explanation of the doctrine of God as Trinity in the NT, though the Trinitarian pattern is present.”
The nature of God does not seem to be a great issue of concern amongst early Christians in the apostolic era. Why then is it such an issue at the time of Constantine? After two centuries of intense persecution, something needed to be done to make Christianity more intellectually acceptable to the subjects of Rome, who were imbued with Hellenistic philosophy—a philosophy than held the material world in contempt. Under the aegis of Rome and after about 125 years of political posturing and debate several creeds were adopted, the most famous of which were the Nicene Creed and the Athanasian Creed (the authorship of the Athanasian Creed is disputed
These creeds purport that the godhead is of one substance. God is a spirit essence manifest in different ways; much like water is manifest as a solid in the case of ice, a liquid at room temperature, and a gas after evaporation or boiling.
The Bible does not define God in this manner; if it did then it would not have taken the councils of the fourth century 125 years to come up with this dogma.
Last edited by zimbabwe; 01-23-2008 at 05:46 AM..
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Who shall make a prophet
