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he regretted what he did. it didnt say he made amends. he tried to put the blame back on the jews, and failed. the reward of a traitor is always the same.
I bet Jesus will treat Judas just like Joseph treated his brothers.
They sold him (Joseph) for silver too. But later Joseph became their Saviour. And Joseph told them not to be upset because God did it:
"Gen 45:5 Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life. For these two years hath the famine been in the land: and yet there are five years, in the which there shall neither be earing nor harvest. And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance. So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.
And like Joseph, Jesus will tell Judas and the Jews who gave him up:
It was not you who sent me to the cross but my Father so that you would be saved.
So what we have is God throwing the free-will of Joseph's brothers out the window, having them do evil (slavery) for the ultimate good (thus having the ends justify the means), and the Egyptian polytheists treating illegal immigrants and meritable slaves honorably.
All of that added to Judas Iscariot repenting to the Universe (and guessing the spiritual Father or the Jewish god) and then killing himself by hanging (and in the other gospel by disembowelment).
People will not admit that they could be wrong about the extent of Jesus's forgiveness, their hearts are hardened to the cultural traditions that teach them that Judas Iscariot's supposed suicide was a sign of his "disgrace."
It would be a wonder if the Jewish god had been merely hoping that soneone would dislike Jesus and be able to human-sacrifise him with their "free-will." More likely, God would harden Judas Iscariots heart or insanity so that he would give up Jesus in actual sell-out, or pretend sell-out with Mesianic hopes.
he regretted what he did. it didnt say he made amends. he tried to put the blame back on the jews, and failed. the reward of a traitor is always the same.
forgiveness? joyous welcoming back like in the story of the prodigal son?
It's good to look at the Greek word metamelomai, translated as 'repented himself' in the KJV. This word means remorse or regret and is such translated in other Bible versions. It reflects a change of the mind, not the heart change of repentance. While Judas felt remorse and regret upon seeing outcome of his betrayal, it is arguably unlikely he experienced a heart change. Remorse and regret are the resultant ends of Judas's sin and foolishness, not a life changing, renewing of the mind, repentance by the divine through faith. Had it been the latter his own fateful outcome would have been different.
What is the difference between the mind and the heart?...
That is interesting there are 2 different words G3338 metamelomai and G3340 metanoeo which both translate to 'repent'. In the Strong's I checked it does say G3338 is 'repent himself' and G3340 translates as:
to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins
So they seem very related. In verse 4 Judas says "I have sinned" - he clearly acknowledges his sin upon realizing what he did and what happened. That is his change of mind - would this not also be a change of heart? When we speak of 'the heart' like this it is really your in your mind that changes.
Regardless it seems he was so distraught that the only outcome he thought available was to hang himself. He was doomed to this. Jesus even told him to "do what he came to do" - Jesus knew it must be done.
So did God forgive him of this? A broader question then is what does "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" apply to? Was Jesus just asking His Father to forgive only the Roman soldiers who were putting Him on the cross? What about the crowds? Pilate? Judas? You and I? I think it can only be He was asking forgiveness for everyone.
That is correct legoman.
Not only that but was Judas able to withstand Satan? To make sure Judas did what he was born to do, Satan entered his heart.
And Judas had to fulfill the Scriptures in the Old Testament concerning him of things which MUST occur.
The cards were stacked against Judas. But lest we charge God with anything wrong concerning this we need to see that the very act of Judas is actually what will save him. Christ died for Judas' sins as well as for all the sins of mankind. God will save all mankind. So all who took part in the death of Christ will be saved due to their actions. Oh the wisdom of God! (1 Timothy 2:4-6).
That is interesting there are 2 different words G3338 metamelomai and G3340 metanoeo which both translate to 'repent'. In the Strong's I checked it does say G3338 is 'repent himself' and G3340 translates as:
to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins
So they seem very related. In verse 4 Judas says "I have sinned" - he clearly acknowledges his sin upon realizing what he did and what happened. That is his change of mind - would this not also be a change of heart? When we speak of 'the heart' like this it is really your in your mind that changes.
Regardless it seems he was so distraught that the only outcome he thought available was to hang himself. He was doomed to this. Jesus even told him to "do what he came to do" - Jesus knew it must be done.
So did God forgive him of this? A broader question then is what does "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" apply to? Was Jesus just asking His Father to forgive only the Roman soldiers who were putting Him on the cross? What about the crowds? Pilate? Judas? You and I? I think it can only be He was asking forgiveness for everyone.
To hang oneself,, I've read, is a Hebraic Idiom...
So what we have is God throwing the free-will of Joseph's brothers out the window, having them do evil (slavery) for the ultimate good (thus having the ends justify the means), and the Egyptian polytheists treating illegal immigrants and meritable slaves honorably.
All of that added to Judas Iscariot repenting to the Universe (and guessing the spiritual Father or the Jewish god) and then killing himself by hanging (and in the other gospel by disembowelment).
People will not admit that they could be wrong about the extent of Jesus's forgiveness, their hearts are hardened to the cultural traditions that teach them that Judas Iscariot's supposed suicide was a sign of his "disgrace."
It would be a wonder if the Jewish god had been merely hoping that soneone would dislike Jesus and be able to human-sacrifise him with their "free-will." More likely, God would harden Judas Iscariots heart or insanity so that he would give up Jesus in actual sell-out, or pretend sell-out with Mesianic hopes.
Joseph's brothers didn't have free will. They all have wills . . . wills of the flesh (Eph.2:3) which flesh is at enmity to God and not able to please Him (Romans 8:8). God, in His sovereignty, had to make sure Joseph got to Egypt the way he did. The brothers' actions were necessary for their salvation, unbeknownst to them, to save them. Likewise the actions of those who crucified Jesus were necessary for their salvation. "1Co 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." Joseph's brothers were trying to keep Joseph's dreams from coming to reality. Had they known that selling Joseph into Egypt to fulfill his dreams they would not have giving him up as well.
God uses our rebellion as a means of our salvation. He is so wise, who can fathom the depths, widths and heights of His wisdom?
That is interesting there are 2 different words G3338 metamelomai and G3340 metanoeo which both translate to 'repent'. In the Strong's I checked it does say G3338 is 'repent himself' and G3340 translates as:
to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins
So they seem very related. In verse 4 Judas says "I have sinned" - he clearly acknowledges his sin upon realizing what he did and what happened. That is his change of mind - would this not also be a change of heart? When we speak of 'the heart' like this it is really your in your mind that changes.
Regardless it seems he was so distraught that the only outcome he thought available was to hang himself. He was doomed to this. Jesus even told him to "do what he came to do" - Jesus knew it must be done.
So did God forgive him of this? A broader question then is what does "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" apply to? Was Jesus just asking His Father to forgive only the Roman soldiers who were putting Him on the cross? What about the crowds? Pilate? Judas? You and I? I think it can only be He was asking forgiveness for everyone.
Excellent post Lego. I'm not forgiving you until you say you are sorry is the spirit of the world, in my opinion. Repentance comes from knowing we are forgiven.
Joseph's brothers didn't have free will. They all have wills . . . wills of the flesh (Eph.2:3) which flesh is at enmity to God and not able to please Him (Romans 8:8). God, in His sovereignty, had to make sure Joseph got to Egypt the way he did. The brothers' actions were necessary for their salvation, unbeknownst to them, to save them. Likewise the actions of those who crucified Jesus were necessary for their salvation. "1Co 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." Joseph's brothers were trying to keep Joseph's dreams from coming to reality. Had they known that selling Joseph into Egypt to fulfill his dreams they would not have giving him up as well.
God uses our rebellion as a means of our salvation. He is so wise, who can fathom the depths, widths and heights of His wisdom?
Excellent post Lego. I'm not forgiving you until you say you are sorry is the spirit of the world, in my opinion. Repentance comes from knowing we are forgiven.
Exactly. More truth! I think this is the "preaching of the cross that is foolishness to 'men' ". Scripture confirms that it is the KINDNESS of GOD that leads to repentance.
Last edited by Heartsong; 04-16-2014 at 06:17 AM..
Reason: Addition
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