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Agreed. If we look at the entirety of what happened, we see it:
- Judas repented - changed his mind
- Judas acknowledged what he did was a sin
- Judas refused the silver and threw it back
At this point he probably thought the only remaining restitution was to end his own life.
Interesting point on the 30 pieces of silver: at that time the wage of a Roman soldier was 1/10th of an ounce of silver. This was the value of a day of hard labor. So if this was 30 ounces of silver, it could be equivalent to 300 days wage, or approximately a year's salary. Another study I read said 30 pieces of silver was probably about 4 months of wages for a skilled laborer. This was no small payment that Judas received for his deed.
I don't think he even thoughg to end his life, I think, as pointed out, that he was distraught, i.e. Hebrew idiom, hung himself...The question is, was Judas able to forgive himself, even after he witnessed the risen Saviour?...
I don't think he even thoughg to end his life, I think, as pointed out, that he was distraught, i.e. Hebrew idiom, hung himself...The question is, was Judas able to forgive himself, even after he witnessed the risen Saviour?...
OK I see what you are getting at. You think he didn't actually hang himself, or even kill himself... only metaphorically speaking - and thus was still around (and possibly repentant, if as you ask - did he forgive himself) by the time Jesus returned 3 days later?
OK I see what you are getting at. You think he didn't actually hang himself, or even kill himself... only metaphorically speaking - and thus was still around (and possibly repentant, if as you ask - did he forgive himself) by the time Jesus returned 3 days later?
Another Hebraic idiom I just came across: "bowels" means "inner self" or "heart". Put that together with the Acts account and perhaps it means that Judas' "heart" was broken by what he did, or perhaps his "inner self" was broken -- some sort of a mental illness or psychotic break which resulted from his actions?
No idea. It's just an interesting idea that Richard brought up, so I was curious how that passage might be taken in a different way.
Joseph's brothers didn't have free will. They all have wills . . . wills of the flesh (Eph.2:3) which flesh is at enmity to God and not able to please Him (Romans 8:8). God, in His sovereignty, had to make sure Joseph got to Egypt the way he did. The brothers' actions were necessary for their salvation, unbeknownst to them, to save them. Likewise the actions of those who crucified Jesus were necessary for their salvation. "1Co 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." Joseph's brothers were trying to keep Joseph's dreams from coming to reality. Had they known that selling Joseph into Egypt to fulfill his dreams they would not have giving him up as well.
God uses our rebellion as a means of our salvation. He is so wise, who can fathom the depths, widths and heights of His wisdom?
very collorful elaborations and reinterpretations, have you ever thought of letting the HS inspire in you a new more understandable version of the Bible? I had heard from other supposed Christians like you, that free-will was necessary, but you say that God is fine and justified in controlling us, but only when it suits him, regarless of if it suits us). This "will of the flesh" would have been had by Adam and Eve before "God" set up things the way he did in Eden.
Yet,
if you knew killing Jesus would achieve the "forgiveness" of the world (who "injured" a diety incapable of fault regardless of action) would you not kill him in ultimate human sacrifise? and yet the calamities continue, even to the Amish.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong
Exactly. More truth! I think this is the "preaching of the cross that is foolishness to 'men' ". Scripture confirms that it is the KINDNESS of GOD that leads to repentance.
Interesting assertion, I've always though injustice should be met with Justice, not easy forgivess. I'm further stricken odd, because foolishness is often also foolishness to man. Are other contradicting religions not seen as foolishness by preachers of the cross? How do they go about applying different standards? Faith and feelings for anything are possible.
Last edited by LuminousTruth; 04-16-2014 at 11:27 AM..
I wouldn't disagree with the spirit of what people are saying. It sounds right. What then does Jesus mean when he says it would be better if Judas hadn't been born....?
The son of perdition is a pretty meaty title for anyone.
Dear Age-enduring,
Let us put Mark 14:21 and Luke 22:22 into a display that will make it much easier to understand why “Him” should be capitalized, and, does indeed, refer to the Son of Mankind and not Judas:
Do you see the above correctly? It was actually ideal for Jesus if Judas had not been born. By "ideal" we are thinking of what is ideal and what is not. Of course it was necessary Judas was born to fulfill the Scripture of giving up the Christ but it was not the IDEAL thing for Christ to have to go through all the agony and crucifixion. Get it?
very collorful elaborations and reinterpretations, have you ever thought of letting the HS inspire in you a new more understandable version of the Bible? I had heard from other supposed Christians like you, that free-will was necessary, but you say that God is fine and justified in controlling us, but only when it suits him, regarless of if it suits us). This "will of the flesh" would have been had by Adam and Eve before "God" set up things the way he did in Eden.
Yet,
if you knew killing Jesus would achieve the "forgiveness" of the world (who "injured" a diety incapable of fault regardless of action) would you not kill him in ultimate human sacrifise? and yet the calamities continue, even to the Amish.
Interesting assertion, I've always though injustice should be met with Justice, not easy forgivess. I'm further stricked odd, because foolishness is often also foolishness to man. Are other contradicting religions not seen as foolishness by preachers of the cross? How do they go about applying different standards? Faith and feelings for anything are possible.
Hi LT, Like Joseph, Jesus also had visions or dreams if you will. Joseph was beloved of his father Isaac over all his other children. Jesus was the beloved Son of His Father as well. The religious hierarchy hated Christ and wanted to kill Him. If they had known that, in killing Him, He would return to take the kingdom away from them and give it to those who deserve it, would they have killed Him?
Yes Adam and Eve were made fleshly and soulish.
God knew full well in advance that "The flesh is not able to please [Him]." And "the soulish man is not receiving that which is of the spirit of God." God set up the garden specifically for Adam to fail so that death would pass through into all mankind and He could bring about the Saviour.
I wouldn't disagree with the spirit of what people are saying. It sounds right. What then does Jesus mean when he says it would be better if Judas hadn't been born....?
The son of perdition is a pretty meaty title for anyone.
hmmm, good point.
But why would God make the mistake of comming as a mortal man if he didnt want to die?
lets see, equally he might mean it would have been better for Judas, since Judas wouldnt have suffered so much. Maybe Jesus means that if he hadnt been killed he would have also completed his mission (either with or without having to die). Perhabs Judas is a model for peole who deny Jesus then it becomes too late for them to repent even though they later do (not sure what sort of free-choice forgiveness works that way), they end up killing themselves in sorrow. But if it would have been better that they not have been born, why would a god who knows the future force them to exist anyway? perhaps for "the greater good" of others instead of themselves. That's sort of messed up unless God isnt an all-capable being.
a lot of good points brought up by other such as lego and Richard such as the 30 pieces of silver equalling anything from 15,000 current dollars to 70,000 (4 -10 months of work).
Did Judas even commit "actual" suicide? or did he just go crazy?
was Judas Iscariot replaced by the second Matthew (Matthias) before he appeared after his death to the 11? or was Judas Iscariot present as it was Thomas that was absent. Are the events in the different gospels simply similar or are they they same?
Last edited by LuminousTruth; 04-16-2014 at 11:25 AM..
Hi LT, Like Joseph, Jesus also had visions or dreams if you will. Joseph was beloved of his father Isaac over all his other children. Jesus was the beloved Son of His Father as well. The religious hierarchy hated Christ and wanted to kill Him. If they had known that, in killing Him, He would return to take the kingdom away from them and give it to those who deserve it, would they have killed Him?
Yes Adam and Eve were made fleshly and soulish.
God knew full well in advance that "The flesh is not able to please [Him]." And "the soulish man is not receiving that which is of the spirit of God." God set up the garden specifically for Adam to fail so that death would pass through into all mankind and He could bring about the Saviour.
oh, so you think the author/writer was talking about a limited knowledge of Jesus' triumph by the cross, not about the forgiveness by the cross.
so you do think God has everything set-up. But tgen i wouldnt see why the need to make Adam and Eve in flesh in the first place. (this might be a tangent, but why would god like burning animal sacrifises instead of crop sacrises? Do you think the flesh of animals is more/less pleasing than that of plants?)
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I think this is the "preaching of the cross that is foolishness to 'men' ". Scripture confirms that it is the KINDNESS of GOD that leads to repentance.
