Who created Jesus and the Holy Spirit? (Lutherans, incarnation, myth)
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Yeah, but that was written before Trinity doctrine was finalized.
Tracing mankind's religious family tree back to its base in ancient Babylon there was a triune or trinity with Nimrod.
As people migrated from ancient Babylon they took with them their religious myths and spread them world wide into a greater religious Babylon or Babylon the Great. That is why we see overlapping or similar false religious concepts or ideas on a global scale today even inside of Christendom which started in the 4th century with Constantine.
The critical words are in the genitive and link the Firstorn/prototokos as part of creation.
Prototokos never just covers primacy, but always includes, when the genitive is involved, such firstborn as part of the group specified.
Thus Jesus is the prototokos OF all creation.
It does not refer to ruler ship or primacy alone, but as part of the group under discussion.
What words you chose to us to translate prototokos do not change the grammar involved and it links Jesus with creation. The word change is simply misdirection to avoid the real grammatical issue.
While the Arians and the Jehovah's Witness argue that Colossians 1:15 proves that Jesus is a created being and therefore had a beginning, such is not the case. Jesus Christ is God and God is not a created being and did not have a beginning.
John 1:2 tells us that nothing that has come into being came into being apart from Jesus (the Word in John 1:1). That means that Jesus cannot have been created. Jesus did not create Himself. Nor was He created by the Father. As God, Jesus existed before EVERYTHING which has been created.
In Bibliotheca Sacra 149 (April 1992) 180-92; Doctrinal Issues in Colossians Part 2; The Doctrine of Christ in Colossians, H. Wayne House writes;
Christ is the prwt ot okoj, of all creation (v. 15). The phrase ''the first-born of all creation'' (prwt ot okoj pas hj kt is ewj) does not mean that Christ is a created being, the first part of all that was created by God in the beginning. This view of the Arians and more recently of the Jehovah's Witnesses is clearly heretical when the title is seen in its context, particularly in the light of verse 16. ''First-born'' suggests supremacy, not temporality. 7 Israel was designated as God's first-born (Exod. 4:22), and yet many other nations existed before Israel became a nation. Israel was chosen by God to be supreme over all nations as His specially chosen people. As seen in Psalm 89:27 (''I will also make Him My firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth''), Christ as the first-born is the Heir and Ruler over all. 8 Hebrews 1:6 also refers to Christ as the prwt ot okoj
Colossians 1:16 unfolds the meaning of Christ's role in creation: ''For in Him all things were created that are n heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions, or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him (author's translation). http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted_...ianspt2-bs.pdf [The numbers 7 and 8 are supposed to be subscripts, but I was unable to present them as such]
In the following article on Colossians 1:15 the author presents his view as well as commenting on Dan Wallace's view of the meaning of ''first-born.''
Where is God spoken of as being His own Word, however Jesus is the Word [ spokesman ].
The same Greek grammar rule applies at John 1 v 1 as at Acts 28 v 6 B.
The KJV Bible adds the letter ' a ' at Jn 1 v 1 but omits the letter 'a' at Acts 28 v 6 B.
God is a title, and the Tetragrammaton name only ever is applied to God, never to Jesus.
Psalm 90 v 2 says God is from everlasting.....
God Had No beginning and can have No end, No death for God.
Whereas gospel writer John wrote at Revelation that Jesus had a heavenly beginning.- Rev. 1 v 5, 3 v 14
Also, as posted above before any thing was created Jesus was first born in the heavens.- Col. 1 v 15
As first, or first born [ Col. 1 v 17 ] Jesus is before all things....Psalm 89 v 27; Eph. 3 v 9
Before all creation/things does Not mean Jesus was before the beginning as God was before the beginning.
Jesus was before anything else was created. That is why at Genesis 1 v 26 Jesus would be part of the ' us '.
All things come through the created heavenly Jesus.
God sent the already existing heavenly Jesus to earth. [ transformed his heavenly life to sinless earthly life ]
As gospel writer John also wrote at 1st John 4 v 12 that 'No man has seen God at any time'. Didn't people see Jesus ?
People saw Jesus and lived. - Exodus 33 v 20; John 6 v 46 - can a person live and still see God ?______
As John 1:1 clearly states, the Word (the pre-incarnate Jesus) was with God and was God. John calls Jesus the Word because He is the revealed Person of the Godhead.
In Zechariah 14:1-5 Yahweh refers to Jesus Christ. It is Jesus who will stand on the Mount of Olives when He returns.
Psalm 102:25-27 applies to God.
Psalm 102:25 "Of old You founded the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 26] "Even they will perish, but You endure; And all of them will wear out like a garment; Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed. 27] "But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end.
However, Hebrews 1:10-12 shows that Psalm 102:25-27 is referring to Jesus Christ. Hebrews 1:5-8 shows that this is God the Father saying the following of Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 1:10 And, "YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11] THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12] AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME, AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END." [Caps are the NASB's.]
The Bible clearly reveals and states that Jesus Christ is God, as in the Creator God who created all things that have been created. Period.
So there are couple of different perspective I have seen so far, and I respect all of them.
My only point is, if God created Jesus, and God also created the Holy Spirit then, God is the creator while Jesus and the Holy spirit are the creations. In which case Jesus and the Holy spirit cannot be God, otherwise it is impossible to create oneself before your existence. You can't create yourself if you don't exist.
The other point is, if Jesus was created without a biological father (which as a Muslim, I fully believe) then Adam's birth is even more miraculous since he was born without a father and without a mother. Isn't that logical?
Last edited by ll0OoO0ll; 04-27-2014 at 02:54 PM..
Yeah, but that was written before Trinity doctrine was finalized.
Yes and ignored afterward, with the excuse that the word refers to primacy. They ignore the grammar because .... it shows their position is in error.
God writes and man twists.
While the Arians and the Jehovah's Witness argue that Colossians 1:15 proves that Jesus is a created being and therefore had a beginning, such is not the case. Jesus Christ is God and God is not a created being and did not have a beginning.
John 1:2 tells us that nothing that has come into being came into being apart from Jesus (the Word in John 1:1). That means that Jesus cannot have been created. Jesus did not create Himself. Nor was He created by the Father. As God, Jesus existed before EVERYTHING which has been created.
In Bibliotheca Sacra 149 (April 1992) 180-92; Doctrinal Issues in Colossians Part 2; The Doctrine of Christ in Colossians, H. Wayne House writes;
Christ is the prwt ot okoj, of all creation (v. 15). The phrase ''the first-born of all creation'' (prwt ot okoj pas hj kt is ewj) does not mean that Christ is a created being, the first part of all that was created by God in the beginning. This view of the Arians and more recently of the Jehovah's Witnesses is clearly heretical when the title is seen in its context, particularly in the light of verse 16. ''First-born'' suggests supremacy, not temporality. 7 Israel was designated as God's first-born (Exod. 4:22), and yet many other nations existed before Israel became a nation. Israel was chosen by God to be supreme over all nations as His specially chosen people. As seen in Psalm 89:27 (''I will also make Him My firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth''), Christ as the first-born is the Heir and Ruler over all. 8 Hebrews 1:6 also refers to Christ as the prwt ot okoj
Colossians 1:16 unfolds the meaning of Christ's role in creation: ''For in Him all things were created that are n heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions, or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him (author's translation). http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted_...ianspt2-bs.pdf [The numbers 7 and 8 are supposed to be subscripts, but I was unable to present them as such]
In the following article on Colossians 1:15 the author presents his view as well as commenting on Dan Wallace's view of the meaning of ''first-born.''
Scripture simply does not present Jesus Christ as a created being, but clearly reveals that He is God, the Creator of all things.
And they all ignore the genitive making their arguments of no value.
In addition Jesus is never called the Creator or co-creator in Scripture. Man's addition again.
Note Col 1:15 was not used in any way to prove a Trinity or teach it in the 1st and 2nd centuries because the people KNEW Greek and KNEW it did not convey any thought of a Trinity.
The phrase: “the firstborn of” occurs 36 times according to Strong’s ExhaustiveConcordance Of The Bible. They are found at: Genesis 25:13; Exodus 6:4; 11:15 (three times); 12:29 (three times); 13:13, 15 (three times); 22:29; 34:20; Numbers 3:13, 40, 46, 50; 8:16, 17; 18:15; Joshua 17:1; 1 Chronicles 1:29; 2:3, 13, 25, 27, 50; 4:4; 5:1; 9:31; Nehemiah 10:36; Job 18:13; Psalms 135:8; Isaiah 14:30 and Colossians 1:15. Always we find common meanings; the one called “the firstborn of” is a part of the group mentioned (this is called a genitive); and had a beginning of existence!
Christ...is the first-born of every creature, that is, born before every creature — having come to personal existence, entered upon subsistent being, ere [before] anything created was extant.... The genitive pases ktiseos [of all creation] moreover, is not the partitive genitive (although de Wette still [also], with Usteri, Reuss, and Baur, holds this to be indubitable) [that “first-born of” , is a partitive genitive]…‘ the first-born in comparison with every creature’...that is, born earlier than every creature.—Heinrich August Wilhelm Meyer, Critical and Exegetical Hand—Book to the Epistles to the Philippians and Colossians, and to Philemon, pp. 224-5.
On the word ‘prototokos’ (firstborn) lexicons and translations inform:
“[T]he first-born whether of man or of beast”—Grimm–Thayer, p. 555.
“[F]irstborn...Mt. 1:25; Lu. 2:7; He. 11:28”—Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, p. 734.
“[P]rior in generation Col. 1:15”—Analytical Greek Lexicon, p. 355.
Again the grammar rules and the Trinity is over ruled.
And they all ignore the genitive making their arguments of no value.
In addition Jesus is never called the Creator or co-creator in Scripture. Man's addition again.
Note Col 1:15 was not used in any way to prove a Trinity or teach it in the 1st and 2nd centuries because the people KNEW Greek and KNEW it did not convey any thought of a Trinity.
The phrase: “the firstborn of” occurs 36 times according to Strong’s ExhaustiveConcordance Of The Bible. They are found at: Genesis 25:13; Exodus 6:4; 11:15 (three times); 12:29 (three times); 13:13, 15 (three times); 22:29; 34:20; Numbers 3:13, 40, 46, 50; 8:16, 17; 18:15; Joshua 17:1; 1 Chronicles 1:29; 2:3, 13, 25, 27, 50; 4:4; 5:1; 9:31; Nehemiah 10:36; Job 18:13; Psalms 135:8; Isaiah 14:30 and Colossians 1:15. Always we find common meanings; the one called “the firstborn of” is a part of the group mentioned (this is called a genitive); and had a beginning of existence!
Christ...is the first-born of every creature, that is, born before every creature — having come to personal existence, entered upon subsistent being, ere [before] anything created was extant.... The genitive pases ktiseos [of all creation] moreover, is not the partitive genitive (although de Wette still [also], with Usteri, Reuss, and Baur, holds this to be indubitable) [that “first-born of” , is a partitive genitive]…‘ the first-born in comparison with every creature’...that is, born earlier than every creature.—Heinrich August Wilhelm Meyer, Critical and Exegetical Hand—Book to the Epistles to the Philippians and Colossians, and to Philemon, pp. 224-5.
On the word ‘prototokos’ (firstborn) lexicons and translations inform:
“[T]he first-born whether of man or of beast”—Grimm–Thayer, p. 555.
“[F]irstborn...Mt. 1:25; Lu. 2:7; He. 11:28”—Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, p. 734.
“[P]rior in generation Col. 1:15”—Analytical Greek Lexicon, p. 355.
Again the grammar rules and the Trinity is over ruled.
No, they didn't ignore the grammar. There is more to the grammar issue regarding Colossians 1:15 as you would have found out had you read the second site I posted on the matter.
God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1)
Jesus Christ created the heavens and the earth (John 1:3; Col. 1:16)
Jesus is God. He is the Creator. Therefore He is not a creature and He never had a beginning.
It is you who are ignoring the facts. God is indeed triune. But I don't need to keep going back and forth with you about it. Believe what you choose to believe.
Last edited by Michael Way; 04-27-2014 at 09:01 PM..
God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1)
Jesus Christ created the heavens and the earth (John 1:3; Col. 1:16)
.
???
Which one is right?
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