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IMHO, it would seem that if you assume that because God is love, there is no eternal punishment, then in reality you are on the path to atheism. Why? Well, if someone assumes that, then the next question is, why, If God is love, why does he allow suffering and death in the world today? This has led others to say that there is no god, because a loving god would not allow all the suffering and injustice in the world. So there must be no god at all.
IMHO, it would seem that if you assume that because God is love, there is no eternal punishment, then in reality you are on the path to atheism. Why? Well, if someone assumes that, then the next question is, why, If God is love, why does he allow suffering and death in the world today? This has led others to say that there is no god, because a loving god would not allow all the suffering and injustice in the world. So there must be no god at all.
Great question. So, what's the answer that kept you from becoming an atheist?
No. Perhaps its best you don't assume what others believe... and instead read what they post.
Then explain. I am reading your posts, and I keep asking for clarifications, because your story keeps evolving.
I have asked you a dozen times what you mean by "reaping what you sow" after you die, and finally you said it means being thrown into the lake of fire. Then you said the lake of fire is death. That can only mean you are killed again in the after life, but now you said it does not mean that, and offer no explanation. The story evolves again.
IMHO, it would seem that if you assume that because God is love, there is no eternal punishment, then in reality you are on the path to atheism. Why? Well, if someone assumes that, then the next question is, why, If God is love, why does he allow suffering and death in the world today? This has led others to say that there is no god, because a loving god would not allow all the suffering and injustice in the world. So there must be no god at all.
Yes, I agree. They do not like the God of this life, so they invented one which is different after we die.
Great question. So, what's the answer that kept you from becoming an atheist?
I would say the belief that love allows suffering. .
Love is perfectly described in 1 Corinthians 13, there is no way any open minded sane person can believe that Love and eternal torture can be compatible after reading that chapter. The reason i formerly believed it to be so was due to me not being in a right frame of mind.
This is what i see when i read this verse......God bears up under anything and everything that comes, He is ever ready to believe the best of every person, God's hopes are fadeless under all circumstances, and He endures everything [without weakening]. 1 Corinthians 13:7
Then explain. I am reading your posts, and I keep asking for clarifications, because your story keeps evolving.
I have asked you a dozen times what you mean by "reaping what you sow" after you die, and finally you said it means being thrown into the lake of fire.
No, that is not how it went. You keep trying to move the goalposts. It would be much easier if you would accept and read the answers given.
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Then you said the lake of fire is death. That can only mean you are killed again in the after life, but now you said it does not mean that, and offer no explanation. The story evolves again.
Again, you need to learn how to read another person's post. You keep twisting my words. Please stop doing that.
I did not say the "lake of fire is death". What I actually said was "Exactly". I certainly did not say that you are killed again in the after life.
I was agreeing with what Eusebius said which was that "it is called death". And more specifically it is called the "second death" as it is in Revelations. I also agreed with Eusebius that death will be abolished after Christ has finished His reign, as death is the last enemy that is destroyed. Now Eusebius and I may not see the Lake of Fire exactly the same way and I am not sure on his specific views in that regard. But that is alright, I am ok with that. It is neither here nor there.
When asking about "reaping what you sow", it seems that you are asking what the "lake of fire" is exactly? Well I would ask you the same thing - since scripture says it is the second death do you think people are killed again in the afterlife?
But you see I do not think the lake of fire is literal. Most of Revelations is not literal. That does not mean it is not real. It just means it is not a physical lake or a physical fire. It is spiritual. And its purpose is not to torment endlessly. Its purpose is to remove all the sin nature out of us - the cowards, the liars, the adulterers, etc will all have their part in the lake of fire. Who among us is not one of these?
Ever wonder why those in the lake of fire are in the presence of the lamb? No, of course you haven't (sorry excuse my sarcasm). Or maybe you have. But there is a reason. Christ is the great refiner who will make all righteous. That is what Revelations is about. Revelations really means 'unveiling' - it is the unveiling of Christ. The lake of fire describes this process. This is the revelation, the unveiling that John saw.
In the end all will be made righteous in Christ just as all were made sinners in Adam. Just as it says in Romans 5:18-19. All will be made alive just as it says in 1 Cor 15. With this I agree with Eusebius and can say "exactly".
And the reason I can know all this to be true, along with scripture telling me so, is that ETERNAL TORTURE is INCOMPATIBLE with LOVE, of which God IS!
I would say the belief that love allows suffering. .
Love is perfectly described in 1 Corinthians 13, there is no way any open minded sane person can believe that Love and eternal torture can be compatible after reading that chapter. The reason i formerly believed it to be so was due to me not being in a right frame of mind.
This is what i see when i read this verse......God bears up under anything and everything that comes, He is ever ready to believe the best of every person, God's hopes are fadeless under all circumstances, and He endures everything [without weakening]. 1 Corinthians 13:7
Suffering is a relative term.
My 3-year old son thinks he is suffering when I don't give him everything he wants, but I know it is for his best interests.
Scale that up by a million times and we might have a tiny glimpse of what God is doing here.
My 3-year old son thinks he is suffering when I don't give him everything he wants, but I know it is for his best interests.
Scale that up by a million times and we might have a tiny glimpse of what God is doing here.
That is fair comment, but in the same breathe you are not the cause of how he is feeling. So you are not the cause of his suffering. Love causes no harm to its neighbor. Yes suffering is a relative term and love suffers long.
That is fair comment, but in the same breathe you are not the cause of how he is feeling. So you are not the cause of his suffering. Love causes no harm to its neighbor.
I agree with you, pcamps. But I'm still wondering what Augie came up with as an answer to the question he posed.
That is fair comment, but in the same breathe you are not the cause of how he is feeling. So you are not the cause of his suffering. Love causes no harm to its neighbor. Yes suffering is a relative term and love suffers long.
That is true.
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I agree with you, pcamps. But I'm still wondering what Augie came up with as an answer to the question he posed.
