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for one thing the bible is clear on this, "PRAYER CHANGES THINGS". but not over God's "will". example, as in the book of Jeremiah, God told the prophet Jeremiah not to pray for the people, 7:15 "And I will cast you out of my sight, as I have cast out all your brethren, even the whole seed of Ephraim. 16 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee”. People keep on forgetting GOD “WILL”. it will be done. he give us a free will to chose, "TO DO HIS WILL", but his will be done.
We are not predestinated to sin, that's choice; but, we are predestined to Holiness.
I would have to agree with the opening post, yet God knows how to overcome the world of humanity.
The thoughts and intents of the human heart by and through its own nature.
you must have missed my first post,
Romans 8:19 "For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope”. listen, Romans 9:11 "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth". did you get that?. it's he who calleth, and answer is the result of a call.
I addressed that one. Overall though, this doesn't address God knowing what Adam and Eve would do. Are you saying God subjected Adam, or made Adam disobey to subject the world to vanity? If that be the case, it wasn't Adam's choice, or if Adam didn't want to disobey, he didn't have a choice. Free will is thrown out the door. (Also when it comes to that verse about the election, that was about what God decided, not about our free will to obey Him or not. God chose Jacob to carry through the promises He made to Abraham, not Esau. That didn't mean Esau would become evil by God's will. Those are different things)
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
To answer the question " Did God know Adam and Eve would disobey Him before they were created?"
Yes ... for God is Omniscient.
And yet you state: ... "That's not logical, even with all the power and knowledge that goes beyond human understanding."
Scriptures tell us that God doesn't conform to human logic and that we are to trust God by not leaning to your own understanding.
Romans 11:33-34 “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! ‘Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?’
Proverbs 3:5Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
I stated that's not logical to understanding that goes beyond human logic. Besides, God created us "to" know Him. That He's a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. How can we seek Him if we can never understand Him, or why even seek what you can't understand? Especially on something like this. Besides, we now have the mind of Christ. So our thinking isn't according to the old nature. On top of that, the Holy Spirit dwells in us. Scripture says who knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man within him? We have the Spirit of God dwelling in us, and He certainly knows the Father's thoughts. The Holy Spirit reveals things we don't understand. So yes, we can understand these things, it's our purpose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Al
Thanks for taking a stab at it. Edward's POV is but one I've studied in and out of class. My conclusion on the matter is that there is no clear conclusion. I think it was John Wesley who, when asked by an anxious student, "Explain, how it is that God can foreknow with certainty the future choices of a free agent." To which Mr. Wesley replied, "I frankly confess I can offer no explanation." He was neither ashamed nor humiliated, but honest. I believe that when we've found all the answers and stop seeking is when God no longer uses us. I've seen it happen during the course of my thirty year ministry once.
I hear ya, but God's knowledge is endless. Understanding these things is just the beginning, a spec of everything God knows. Of course this I believe, is actually very simple to understand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
It's simply anthropopathic language. Language of accommodation in which God's justice against sin is being expressed in terms we can understand. The quickest thing for me to do is to post this link to a transcript of a class given by Dr. Robert Dean of West Houston Bible Church on Genesis 6.
There is nothing in the Bible which contradicts God knowing that people would ultimately reject Him. That is simply your opinion concerning verses you don't understand. As I said, what is said in Psalm 139 is true of everyone. God's Word does not contradict itself.
Consider this. If God doesn't know who will ultimately reject Him, then how is it that He knows that at the end of the Millennium the number of people who are going to rebel against the Millennial reign of Christ will be as the sand of the seashore (Revelation 20:8-9)?
From reading what he had to say about God being sorrowful, I can see he assumes God knew what man's choices would be before creation. He then states all the language concerning God's sorrow was simply words helping us to see the dire situation in those days. To see the righteous judgment of God on the planet. The problem with that is if God didn't actually feel sorrow, what's the point it's making again? God's sorry, but in reality He's not? God's grieved, but in reality He's not? In the end if those words don't mean what they are saying, if they are trying to put the context in human terms, it fails to do so. Does God feel anything at all? By the way, were we not made in God's image? Even though we are born into corruption, our expressions are a reflection of Him, albeit again that nature being off the mark. Jesus said you can get angry, but don't sin. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong) Jesus certainly displayed His anger, His sorrow, etc. Are we to say those weren't real emotions, just something in human words to help us understand whatever it is to understand? (Of course without context, these words could seem condescending. I'm not saying I'm better than the writer of the link you posted, I only want us to think and consider everything)
How does God know the number of people that will rebel against Jesus in the millennial reign? Like that verse I mentioned earlier, that God declares the end from the beginning. It happened before, it will happen again, until God finally puts an end to it. Plus it's stated Satan will be released from his prison and will deceive the nations to rebel against Jesus. Again, it's happened before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 101c
for one thing the bible is clear on this, "PRAYER CHANGES THINGS". but not over God's "will". example, as in the book of Jeremiah, God told the prophet Jeremiah not to pray for the people, 7:15 "And I will cast you out of my sight, as I have cast out all your brethren, even the whole seed of Ephraim. 16 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee”. People keep on forgetting GOD “WILL”. it will be done. he give us a free will to chose, "TO DO HIS WILL", but his will be done.
I can agree with some of the things you are saying here. Yet my question here is, was it God's will that Adam disobey Him?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
We are not predestinated to sin, that's choice; but, we are predestined to Holiness.
I would have to agree with the opening post, yet God knows how to overcome the world of humanity.
The thoughts and intents of the human heart by and through its own nature.
Yep. Of course I can understand why people find it hard to understand when they first hear me, but when we think about it and look throughout the Bible, it makes complete sense.
Oc ourse He did. It is only difficult to understand if we continue to use the ancient ignorance of our ancestors' misunderstanding and beliefs about God's motives. It was our FIRST lesson (of many chronicled in the Bible). There was no anger, no payment needed, no original sin passed down to every succeeding generation. We were a newly created species that had to learn everything from scratch . . . beginning with the idea of right and wrong, Good and Evil. Our species childhood was no different from our individual childhoods . . . "As it was in the beginning, is now and forever will be." We should be very familiar with the process . . . since we each go through it ourselves.
All the angst and nonsense about a vengeful angry God needing to be appeased by blood sacrifices was the creation of our ignorant, primitive minds. Using those interpretations as reality is as ridiculous as using a two year old's description of what happened during their first lesson in obedience! God made that abundantly clear when Noah stupidly sacrificed the very animals he was told to SAVE from extinction!!!
Genesis 8:17-21 (King James Version)
17Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee, of all flesh, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth.
18And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him:
19Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, and whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their kinds, went forth out of the ark.
20And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
21And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
"From his youth" . . . meant the childhood of our species . . . because Noah was no youth! We were just spiritual children misinterpreting what God wanted in fear of God. And so it has been throughout our history.
Oc ourse He did. It is only difficult to understand if we continue to use the ancient ignorance of our ancestors' misunderstanding and beliefs about God's motives. It was our FIRST lesson (of many chronicled in the Bible). There was no anger, no payment needed, no original sin passed down to every succeeding generation. We were a newly created species that had to learn everything from scratch . . . beginning with the idea of right and wrong, Good and Evil. Our species childhood was no different from our individual childhoods . . . "As it was in the beginning, is now and forever will be." We should be very familiar with the process . . . since we each go through it ourselves.
All the angst and nonsense about a vengeful angry God needing to be appeased by blood sacrifices was the creation of our ignorant, primitive minds. Using those interpretations as reality is as ridiculous as using a two year old's description of what happened during their first lesson in obedience! God made that abundantly clear when Noah stupidly sacrificed the very animals he was told to SAVE from extinction!!!
Genesis 8:17-21 (King James Version)
17Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee, of all flesh, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth.
18And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him:
19Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, and whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their kinds, went forth out of the ark.
20And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
21And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
"From his youth" . . . meant the childhood of our species . . . because Noah was no youth! We were just spiritual children misinterpreting what God wanted in fear of God. And so it has been throughout our history.
I think with this we depart in interpretation. Of course I won't say yours is better than mine or mine yours. We talked on these things before. I think though if I were to agree with you, I would throw the Bible out right now. Even the NT.
I think with this we depart in interpretation. Of course I won't say yours is better than mine or mine yours. We talked on these things before. I think though if I were to agree with you, I would throw the Bible out right now. Even the NT.
Do you not think that God has been complicit in our species' spiritual evolution (forget the physical)? Do you not see the Bible as chronicling that spiritual evolution? The Bible is for spiritual edification . . . not carnal or worldly history. Our carnal minds have been focused on the wrong things. No wonder we have it so messed up. That is why the Bible is to be interpreted spiritually . . . NOT carnally. It is about coming to know God . . . because that is eternal life.
John 17:3 (King James Version)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
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Did God Know?
