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Understanding that all things are from God, through God, and to God, does not mean that we understand all of it and why some people suffer the way that they do. But I believe that if it exists He allows it to exist and He has the power to stop it but He doesn't, so there must be a reason for it. God bless and peace.
Of course he knew. Anyone with even a little biblical knowledge would know that.
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
That's Ephesians 1 verses 3 to 5.
God had his plan of redemption for every one of his children, before he even created the world.
A pretty universal understanding of God's character among Christians includes the idea that God is OMNISCIENT. In other words there is nothing that God does not know. Not things present, past or future. If that were not the case then God would not be GOD.
If God did not know about the choices that would be made and about the consequences, if something entered into His creation and caused all of this havoc without His knowledge, then what does this say of His sovereignty? If He did not know, the same thing could happen again and again for all of eternity. God bless and peace.
I stated that's not logical to understanding that goes beyond human logic. Besides, God created us "to" know Him. That He's a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. How can we seek Him if we can never understand Him, or why even seek what you can't understand? Especially on something like this. Besides, we now have the mind of Christ. So our thinking isn't according to the old nature. On top of that, the Holy Spirit dwells in us. Scripture says who knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man within him? We have the Spirit of God dwelling in us, and He certainly knows the Father's thoughts. The Holy Spirit reveals things we don't understand. So yes, we can understand these things, it's our purpose..
I know what you stated .. and what you stated is a conclusion that is not correct along with all these.
God does not explain everything to humanity and we simply do not know all there is to know.
1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face.
Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
Romans 11:33-34 “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!
‘Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?’
Of course he knew. Anyone with even a little biblical knowledge would know that.
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
That's Ephesians 1 verses 3 to 5.
God had his plan of redemption for every one of his children, before he even created the world.
A pretty universal understanding of God's character among Christians includes the idea that God is OMNISCIENT. In other words there is nothing that God does not know. Not things present, past or future. If that were not the case then God would not be GOD.
Correct ... God is OMNISCIENT. If that were not the case then God would not be GOD
Oc ourse He did. It is only difficult to understand if we continue to use the ancient ignorance of our ancestors' misunderstanding and beliefs about God's motives. It was our FIRST lesson (of many chronicled in the Bible). There was no anger, no payment needed, no original sin passed down to every succeeding generation. We were a newly created species that had to learn everything from scratch . . . beginning with the idea of right and wrong, Good and Evil. Our species childhood was no different from our individual childhoods . . . "As it was in the beginning, is now and forever will be." We should be very familiar with the process . . . since we each go through it ourselves.
All the angst and nonsense about a vengeful angry God needing to be appeased by blood sacrifices was the creation of our ignorant, primitive minds. Using those interpretations as reality is as ridiculous as using a two year old's description of what happened during their first lesson in obedience! God made that abundantly clear when Noah stupidly sacrificed the very animals he was told to SAVE from extinction!!!
Genesis 8:17-21 (King James Version)
17Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee, of all flesh, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth.
18And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him:
19Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, and whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their kinds, went forth out of the ark.
20And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
21And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
"From his youth" . . . meant the childhood of our species . . . because Noah was no youth! We were just spiritual children misinterpreting what God wanted in fear of God. And so it has been throughout our history.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown
I believe that the foundation could also mean, the creation of all things, including the ages of time. If God had a plan before the creation, and it included the "fall" of man, then there was something to know before the creation and He would know that they would disobey Him, and this for a purpose. Hebrews 4:3 is a scripture that reveals that His works were finished from the foundation of the world.(kosmos) Kosmos meaning beauty, arrangement, world (Young's Analytical Concordance) God bless and peace.
He knew they would disobey them because that is the only way they could learn right from wrong . . . Good and Evil, Shana. It was our species FIRST lesson on the road to eternal life by knowing God. We all have to go through the same process when we first enter this world too. "As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be."
How many of you ever thought about this, truly dove into this question I'm going to ask and give my answer to? What's the question? Did God know Adam and Eve would disobey Him before they were created? Now, my answer to this question I believe is the right one based on reading and meditating on Scripture. Yet I've yet to meet anyone, christian and atheist alike, who agreed with my answer. Mostly because I feel they don't understand it. (Yes God has all power, but He's not illogical) Before I give you my answer, and let's have discussion with this, if God did know Adam and Eve would disobey and subsequently knew people would spend their eternity in the Lake of Fire, why did He still go ahead and create them? Even if spending an eternity with our Father will be beyond explanation, I would rather have never existed for the sake of those who rejected Jesus, even if it was their will to reject Him.
So my answer to this question did God know Adam and Eve would disobey before creation, no, He didn't know. There was nothing to know. If indeed Adam's choice to disobey God's command was his free will choice, how can his choice exist in any form before his own existence? That's not logical, even with all the power and knowledge that goes beyond human understanding. Now let's say God knew what Adam would do before he was created. What if God would have told Adam his choice before he made it, and all that was going to happen afterward. Is Adam then free to not make that choice, now knowing all the consequences? If he could change the choice, then God didn't know what Adam would do because choices are not set when it comes to free will. If Adam couldn't change the choice for the sake of God's foreknowledge, even though he wants to change it to avoid the bad consequences, then we do not have free will choice. Everybody's destiny is set no matter what. Of course most of us, unless you follow Calvinist teachings, don't believe our choices are set and I would say Scripture agrees. The Bible tells us that God is long suffering, willing that no one would perish and that all come to saving knowledge. If God already knows who will be saved and who will not, why is He long suffering? So a set destiny doesn't jive with Scripture.
God didn't know Adam and Eve would disobey Him before their creation. Scripture to back that up can be found all over the Bible, that one about Him being long suffering is one. Another can be found in Genesis 6, where God regretted creating man and animals on the earth. Why regret something if you already knew what was going to happen? Another Scripture involves the testing of Abraham's faith when He asked him to offer up Isaac. When Abraham followed through with the command, God stopped him and commented "Now I know that you fear God". Yes, I believe God knew what was in Abraham's heart, He could see his thoughts and so on. Yet as for the choice of obedience, Abraham was free to choose to obey or disobey, no matter what his heart was like. The Bible here is plainly showing us that we have free will, and our choices are not set. Another instance that will confirm this is God's regret for making Saul king over Israel. Saul in the beginning had a heart toward God, and the promises that David eventually received, was with Saul in the beginning. They weren't empty promises made to Saul, which they would have been if God knew Saul would eventually turn from Him the way he did.
Finally, the biggest piece of Scripture that wrapped up my understanding with this is the verse that states God knows the end "from the beginning". This tells me if there is no beginning, when it comes to free will, there is no end to know. So before Adam and Eve was created, there was nothing to know. They didn't exist, and neither did their choices. What if God chose not to create man, does He still know what Adam and Eve would do even though they didn't exist? Remember free will means our choice, how can I make a choice if I do not exist? That's like saying my imaginary friend knocked a bowl of cereal on the floor. You know, "It wasn't me mom, it was my friend Gusty who did it"!No, if anyone did anything, it was me, not the imaginary friend. So let me know your thoughts on this one. I predict I will still be the only one who accepts this answer. Me and my imaginary friend Gusty.
Is it necessary for God to know everything in the absolute to be considered omniscient and perfect?
Well, lets look at just one of his cardinal attributes...power. Obviously God has absolute (unlimited power) and thus can rightly be said to be omnipotent. However, we see he exercises his power with self restraint. If not, he would have long ago extinguished mankind not just some cities and the ancient Israelites would have been exterminated early on having failed time and again to keep their covenant with God. Therefore does exercising self restraint on his absolute power render him less than omnipotent and perfect?
Additionally, it would be presumptious to think man can define what an omniscient God should know. Isaiah 46:10 states, "From the beginning I foretell the outcome,And from long ago the things that have not yet been done.I say, ‘My decision will stand,And I will do whatever I please." Psalm 115:3 states, "Our God is in the heavens;He does whatever he pleases." He has the capacity to foretell the outcome. However, he can do whatever he pleases and if that means he decides not to exercise his omniscient power to the full then what of it?
There are some instances that he chose not to exercise his omniscient power such as the examples in Genesis 22:12 and Genesis 18:20-22
It's a big problem to think he knew that Adam and Eve would fail. It would mean from the time before man and women were created God would have known that Satan who was an angelic creature before rebelling would rebel and that Adam and Eve would do the same. It would mean that all the wickedness and bloody history of mankind were "in his mind" before creating the first man and woman and by creating the first man and women he would have made it possible for such a history to come to fruition.
However, we know that God exercises mercy, justice, love, restraint when using his powers Lam 3:22, Psalm 78: 38,39 so I don't see a problem with him choosing to not use his omniscient power to the full.
As far as spending an eternity in the lake of fire. If the wicked are sent to this lake of fire where in Genesis does it state that God warned Adam and Eve that they would spend an eternity in the lake of fire? Afterall, sin entered the world through Adam and Eve Thus billions have died due to their actions and they rebelled although knowing the true God so one would expect them to spend an eternity in the lake of fire. Would it not have been fair to warn them about that consequence if they turned away from God. Also when God passed judgment on Adam and Eve would it be fair to tell Adam and Eve that they were going to return to the ground as dust instead of telling them they were heading to a fiery place of torment?
Additionally, it would be presumptious to think man can define what an omniscient God should know. Isaiah 46:10 states, "From the beginning I foretell the outcome,And from long ago the things that have not yet been done.I say, ‘My decision will stand,And I will do whatever I please." Psalm 115:3 states, "Our God is in the heavens;He does whatever he pleases." He has the capacity to foretell the outcome.
Hd4me, this tells me that not only does He have the capacity to foretell the outcome, but He does foretell the outcome.
Isaiah 46:8
Remember this, and be assured;
Recall it to mind, you transgressors.
9“Remember the former things long past,
For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me
10Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, ‘My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’
I agree with you concerning what He told Adam and Eve. God bless and peace.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 07-15-2014 at 04:51 AM..
"I understand the argument. So with that, what is Genesis 6 trying to convey to us? What is the grief and regret of God really saying"
What is God teaching us about sin and His nature?
God bless and peace.
So your saying these words are trying to show us how much God hate sin in His presense?
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow
Of course he knew. Anyone with even a little biblical knowledge would know that.
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
That's Ephesians 1 verses 3 to 5.
God had his plan of redemption for every one of his children, before he even created the world.
A pretty universal understanding of God's character among Christians includes the idea that God is OMNISCIENT. In other words there is nothing that God does not know. Not things present, past or future. If that were not the case then God would not be GOD.
Those Ephesian verses seem to be saying that He indeed knew what was going to happen, and provided Jesus as the answer to the problem. Yet when you compare scripture with scripture, when you divide it, what this could be saying is the plan of salvation was in place should we have needed it. God would have known we could have sin, that was a choice on the table, and so it was decided the plan for salvation was in Jesus. The reason why I say this is because at the end of verse 3, it says these things were done according to his pleasure and will. 2 Peter 3: 9 states:
"The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."
So it's God's pleasure and His will that everyone come to repentance and saving knowledge. That's not happening. Perhaps some of us are universalists, which if that was true, okay. Yet I believe most of us here aren't that, and there will be people, and perhaps most of us believe there will be more people who are eternally lost than there are who will be saved. I already stated before the God gets no pleasure in seeing the wicked perish. Will there be a day in eternity where God will stop loving those who are eternally lost? If you say yes, okay. Yet if you say no, then why did God continue to create knowing what was coming, that things would happen that aren't in accordance with His will. (If His will is for everyone to repent. Last time I checked, everyone means everyone. If one person is lost, that would be against God's will if He wanted everyone to be saved.) Again if you're a universalist, okay, there's no conflict here.
Besides it's quite obvious no matter what would have happened, whether Adam obeyed or disobeyed, God had a plan for us. Had Adam obeyed, our positions would have been raised to where they are now in Christ without all the suffering. Finally again, I'm not saying there was something to be known and God didn't know it. I'm saying logically speaking, there was nothing for God to know in what Adam would do because Adam's choices didn't exist. Now we may say well that's human logic, God goes beyond that. If that be the case, God can go beyond all logic period, and yet no one here believes God is illogical. You can't have it both ways. If God can do something as illogical of knowing a person's choices even though they do not exist, He can also do something illogical as being Satan as well as being God. That God and Satan can be the same person. So you tell me where does human logic end and where does it begin concerning God? (Though ultimately logic is logic. I know full well there are many things we don't understand about God, but we are in agreement God isn't illogical are we not?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
I know what you stated .. and what you stated is a conclusion that is not correct along with all these.
God does not explain everything to humanity and we simply do not know all there is to know.
1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face.
Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
Romans 11:33-34 “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!
‘Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?’
Not all things, but with this how do you know He didn't explain it? I think it's more of people are afraid to look for the deeper questions. We are still babies being fed the milk of God's revelation, because we refuse to grow up. No, not everything will be revealed right now, but things are being revealed all the time. We let tradition stagnate our growth. That's why you don't see miracles taking place like they did when the Church was born.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hd4me
Is it necessary for God to know everything in the absolute to be considered omniscient and perfect?
Well, lets look at just one of his cardinal attributes...power. Obviously God has absolute (unlimited power) and thus can rightly be said to be omnipotent. However, we see he exercises his power with self restraint. If not, he would have long ago extinguished mankind not just some cities and the ancient Israelites would have been exterminated early on having failed time and again to keep their covenant with God. Therefore does exercising self restraint on his absolute power render him less than omnipotent and perfect?
Additionally, it would be presumptious to think man can define what an omniscient God should know. Isaiah 46:10 states, "From the beginning I foretell the outcome,And from long ago the things that have not yet been done.I say, ‘My decision will stand,And I will do whatever I please." Psalm 115:3 states, "Our God is in the heavens;He does whatever he pleases." He has the capacity to foretell the outcome. However, he can do whatever he pleases and if that means he decides not to exercise his omniscient power to the full then what of it?
There are some instances that he chose not to exercise his omniscient power such as the examples in Genesis 22:12 and Genesis 18:20-22
It's a big problem to think he knew that Adam and Eve would fail. It would mean from the time before man and women were created God would have known that Satan who was an angelic creature before rebelling would rebel and that Adam and Eve would do the same. It would mean that all the wickedness and bloody history of mankind were "in his mind" before creating the first man and woman and by creating the first man and women he would have made it possible for such a history to come to fruition.
However, we know that God exercises mercy, justice, love, restraint when using his powers Lam 3:22, Psalm 78: 38,39 so I don't see a problem with him choosing to not use his omniscient power to the full.
As far as spending an eternity in the lake of fire. If the wicked are sent to this lake of fire where in Genesis does it state that God warned Adam and Eve that they would spend an eternity in the lake of fire? Afterall, sin entered the world through Adam and Eve Thus billions have died due to their actions and they rebelled although knowing the true God so one would expect them to spend an eternity in the lake of fire. Would it not have been fair to warn them about that consequence if they turned away from God. Also when God passed judgment on Adam and Eve would it be fair to tell Adam and Eve that they were going to return to the ground as dust instead of telling them they were heading to a fiery place of torment?
Omniscience means God knows everything. Meaning if there is something to be known, you can bet your pants God already knows it. What about "nothing", what about no thing? That is exactly what Adam and Eve were before their existence. If they were no thing, how can their choices be some thing? That's not logical. It's not logical to say God knew before they were created, what they "would" do. Their would, their will, didn't exist. He knew what they could do, obviously. He knew the options. So He could prepare before hand, like the Scriptures tell us, in love. Yet as for the "would", it's not logical to say God knew, and this is confirmed if you don't overlook all the Scriptures implying this logical thing. I challenge most here because my view includes all the Scriptures, included those speaking on God's foreknowledge. I'm not avoiding certain passages by saying they don't really mean what is being said. If God knew what Adam and Eve would do before creation, you absolutely have to ignore a lot of verses that indicate He didn't know. You also must admit we can never fully know God's thinking, or in the least in this age it's not really beneficial to try and understand God because you can't know now. (and if that is the case, we also have to throw out the verses of Jesus telling us to keep asking/seeking/knocking. Because I am asking, and I'm being told I can't know. I'm seeking, and there's nothing to find. I'm knocking, and the door remains closed)
If we stopped with our traditional mindset, what we've been taught from others who were taught the same things, we will see all the problems that are presented with God knowing. If He went ahead and created for His pleasure, then why is He not pleased to see the wicked perish? That's a problem. If He went ahead and created knowing people would be lost, why then say it's His will that everyone should be saved? Those are Scriptural problems with God knowing, not my own complaints. My view explains all the verses, whereas if God knew, you have to ignore a lot of verses. By the way hd4me, are you a universalist? Do you believe everyone will eventually be saved? (That there is no Lake of Fire, or if there was, people won't be there for an eternity?) If that is the case, okay, there's no problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown
Additionally, it would be presumptious to think man can define what an omniscient God should know. Isaiah 46:10 states, "From the beginning I foretell the outcome,And from long ago the things that have not yet been done.I say, ‘My decision will stand,And I will do whatever I please." Psalm 115:3 states, "Our God is in the heavens;He does whatever he pleases." He has the capacity to foretell the outcome.
Hd4me, this tells me that not only does He have the capacity to foretell the outcome, but He does foretell the outcome.
Isaiah 46:8
Remember this, and be assured;
Recall it to mind, you transgressors.
9“Remember the former things long past,
For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me
10Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, ‘My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’
I agree with you concerning what He told Adam and Eve. God bless and peace.
Yes, I mentioned God declaring the end "from the beginning". "From ancient times", things not yet done. What's the beginning here? I would say that was after Adam and Eve's creation, why? The verse concludes in saying God will accomplish His good pleasure. Does it please God there will be people who are eternally lost? I would say no, it doesn't. If God knew what was going to happen prior to creation, as in it was assured Adam and Eve would disobey, it would have been God's pleasure not to create them. Having mercy on the people who will willingly reject Him.
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