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Please don't lump all IFB's together, they are not all the same. My husband is military and we have had the privelege of attending many IFB's in different states, and while what you say is the extreme, not all church's are like that. The general consensus is to lead a life of separation. What you need to understand is that different Christians have different standards for themselves because God convicts of us different things. You may not be called to give up pants, whereas another women might because it could cause spiritual struggles for her. You need to follow the holy spirits calling in your life and not worry so much about the standards that others have placed in their lives. As long as it is a KJV, spirit-filled church where others are being saved, where members sincerely love one another, what's the problem? The things you have mentioned are not doctrine per se, only guidelines to help us live a life of separation. You can follow all the rules you want and still not have a relationship with Jesus and be right with God. Why not spend some time focusing on your relationship with the Lord and asking him for guidance instead of dwelling on your feelings regarding legalism. God will lead you if you let him.
There are a few IFB megachurches, but you're right, most of them are small. The one near me started arranging people's weddings and also condemning people to hell if they didn't put their kids in the school at the church. That church has shrunk from nearly 500 members 20 years ago to less than 100 today.
Ever heard of Dr. Jack Hyles? He has passed on but is still HUGE within the IFB movement, almost as the Pope is to Catholics. Some of the sermons I've heard exalting him are almost scary. Many of the practices of IFB churches can be traced back to Hyles' teachings.
I am currently attending a Southern Baptist church which I am happy in, but there are two things I miss about the Independent Baptist churches. I miss the old hymns, which most other denominations have left behind, and I DO think the King James Version is superior (though I think the IFB movement takes it a bit too far). It should ultimately be the decision of the believer what version to use.
The IFB church I attended when I rededicated would actually kick out members if they were caught using something other than a KJV.
Overall I say today I have mixed feelings about the IFB movement. Its the denomination that nearly drove me to atheism when I was younger, but its the same denomination that saved me from it and brought me back to Christ.
I was a member of an IFB church for a few years. Someone mentioned that they believe in free will. That is not so, the pastor and all others made it clear they believe in once saved always saved, praying for the poor souls (like myself lol) who believe in free will.
I have since come to learn that many of their teachings were not what God teaches in His word.
Such as OSAS and pre-millenialism
As controversial as once saved always saved is, I couldn't let it go after reading your post. I am a member of a Baptist church, and what we believe is that when a person comes to know Jesus as his personal savior, he or she is brought into a relationship with God that GUARANTEES his salvation as eternally secure. Numberous passages in the bible prove this fact.
It is my attempt to explain some key verses while you read them for yourselt to show why Baptists take on the view of once saved always saved.
Romans 8:30 says And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified NIV. Here we see that from the moment God chooses us, it is as if we are glorified in his presence. Since God has already purposed it in heaven, there is nothing that can or will prevent a born again believer from one day being glorified. Once a person is justified, by believing on Jesus, his salvation is guaranteed because he has started a new life with a clean slate by God. He is secure as if he is already glorified in heaven.
In Romans 8:33-34, Paul asks two cructial questions. Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died more than that, who was raised to life is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. As we see here no one will bring a charge against us because Jesus is his follower's advocate. Who will condemn us? No one will because Jesus is the one who died for us, and is the one who condemns. Therefore, we have both an advocate and judge as our Savior.
Baptists believe that at the moment that you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved Romans 10:9. At that moment, we believe that the believer is born again or regenerated. John 3:3 supports this when Jesus said I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again NIV. Titus 3:5 says he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but becaue of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
For a Christian to lose his salavation, he would have to be un-regenerated. The Bible does not teach that our new birth can be some how taken away when we fall into sin. The Bible also teaches that God's Holy Spirit indwells all believers. John 14:17 says The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. Romans 8:9 you, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ he does not belong to Christ NIV. For a Christian to become unsaved, he would have to become un-indwelt and permanently separated from Jesus.
Looking at Ephesians 2:8-10,for it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by work, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, with God prepared in advance for us to do.
We are saved by grace; it's a gift from God, and it is never said in Scripture that God takes back his gift of salvation when we fall into sin. John 3:15 states that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. What does it mean by everyone who believes in him may have eternal life? It means that if you believe in Jesus today, and have eternal life, but lose it tomorrow, then it was never eternal at all in the first place, and that makes absolutely no sense. Also, if you lose your salvation, the promises of eternal life as taught in the Bible would be in error and a lie.
The clincher Scripture that clearly proves that once saved always saved is Romans 8:38-39 for I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anyting else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God this is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
With all of that said, I did hear a Pastor on a radio program answer this question about whether or not a chrisitan can lose his salvation. He said that a christian can't lose his salvation, but he can FORGET it.
Independance Fundamental Baptist Believe that once you accept Christ as your savior it cannot be taken from you. Each person has a "free will" to choose Christ or reject him. That is exactly what OSAS means.Once you "choose" Christ, you become his and no man (or Devil) can pluck you out of Christ's hand. Your post is saying that we believe the contrary and that is not true.
I must not have been in the same type of IFB church that you were. I just saw your original post as slamming all IFB churches as a whole and since I've been exposed to multiple IFBs in my life and never saw that extreme that you described, I assumed you were exagerating to deliberately give our churches a black eye. My extreme response was an answer to what I considered to be an extreme description. I apologize.
I have some suggested reading material for you - Paul Chappell's "What is a Biblical Fundamentalist?". I just started it, but I am very impressed with how it is written and it does help you to reconsider our definition of fundamental Christianity.
Maybe you shouldn't get out of independent fundamentalism. Maybe you should find an IFB that focuses more on the spiritual state of people than the physical standards. You cannot separate spiritual growth and sanctification, but sanctification is a byproduct of spiritual growth not vice versa. I am convinced that churches should not report to a mother church. I am convinced that the Bible should be our ultimate authority and not the traditions of a church. If you agree with those tenets, you will greatly reduce your denomination choices. It does appear from your post that you are just looking for a church where you can have fewer rules, but if you are truly just tired of the rules being the focus of the church (as I would be), pray and ask God for direction and I believe God will lead you to the church that you need to be in. It may not be where you are most comfortable, but growth (spiritual and physical) does not come without discomfort. I'll be praying for you.
Pator Chappell is my Pastor. He is fabulous! We are taught to follow him as he follows Christ. We are taught to read the bible as we would eat food, daily and study it to see for ourselves what Christ wants for our lives. He is on the internet every Sunday morning, night and Wednesday night live streamed. lancasterbaptist.org. in the search, type live stream and then go. you will love it.
Bchris02
That church you went to is not following Christ's teachings. No wonder it is shrinking... God is not in it anymore. My church teaches us to love and encourage new christians and even visitors. To lovingly exhibit Christ's likeness and not judge and condemn. We let the Holy Spirit do the convicting for change, not a sideways glance and guilt trip. We sit and pray with our guests and disciple our new Christians so that when they are asked why they believe what they believe, they can give an answer. By the way, that answer is not "because my pastor says so." The answer is from the KJV of the bible. Everything that is taught comes straight from the bible, there is never anything else used.
Last edited by jj_4Christ; 03-24-2009 at 07:09 PM..
Romans,
My church doesn't condemn women for wearing pants or for having an opinion. In fact when women wear pants to church we still love them. If that is the best they have for Jesus, then that is what they should wear. Pastor encourages the men to actively run the home but gives sound advice that sometimes "mamma" knows better and men would do well to listen to her. The women in my church are put on a pedistal. the biblical principle for the standards you are referring to is to "abstain from the "appearance" of evil. "Let not your good be evil spoken of." You have exaggerated a bit but I suppose there are some churches where the wives don't even wear pants pj's but there is bad in everything. We need to actively search for the good.
Last edited by jj_4Christ; 03-24-2009 at 07:10 PM..
Foreverbuckeye,
I concur. As long as your standards are based on Bible principles you cannot go wrong. Listen to the conviction of the Holy Spirit, not the guilt trip of a few hypocrites. They are in every church. Separation will get you made fun of but it will also keep you in the will of God. The bible says that all who will follow Christ will be persecuted. That will never be truer than in the world we live in today. Sorry but it is true. I choose to hear "well done thou good and faithful servant" You need to choose this for yourself and to what degee.
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Osas
Read all of Pastor Chappell's books!
