Independent Fundamental Baptists (Lutheran, preacher, believe, scripture)
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I am not exactly sure how this turned in to the whole debate about "homosexuality". I just wanted to back up my beliefs with bible verses! and I invited the other poster to do the same. and of course I am still waiting. I just wanted to comment on this post.. I have very STRONG convictions.. and I stick to them.. ( because I have back up ! ) But I am willing to try to see others arguments.... So I went to this link, to see what it was all about.. I tried to find something solid and bible based.. but got nothing but "other peoples versions and interpretations of scripture."
Then when I went down to the references for the text........ Reference:
"Legislature chaplain comes out as gay; position eliminated," People for the American Way, at: http://www.pfaw.org/
Fred Tasker, "What does the Bible say about homosexuality? Church people of differing beliefs debate the words -- and their meaning then and now," Philadelphia Inquirer, 1997-JUL-13. Online at: http://members.aol.com/
Ben Witherington III, "Was Sodom into Sodomy? What the Bible says about sodomy, homosexuality and sin," The Word's Worth, Beliefnet.com, at: http://www.beliefnet.com/
Rabbi Shmuley Boteach, "Homosexuality Is A Religious Sin, Not An Ethical One Fighting gay sex--or even homosexual unions--only distracts from making straight marriage better," Beliefnet.com, at: http://www.beliefnet.com/
J.S. Spong, "Dallas, Texas: A new vision," A new Christianity for a new world, 2006-OCT-18. Bishop Spong described an event at a gay pride parade where "... a group of Bible-wielding counter demonstrators ... with voices screaming and faces contorted by anger promised us the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah."
William Sloane Coffin, "Commentary: It's clear that homophobia was reason for ad's rejection," United Church News, 2004-DEC-15, at: http://news.ucc.org/ (broken link)
Rabbi Gershon Caudill, "A Heterosexual Jewish Rebbe's View on the (Supposedly) Homosexual Texts in the Hebrew Bible," at: http://www.affirmation.org/ (broken link)
ThNGPA has merged with Apostolic Intercessory Ministry; both groups are now known as Apostolic Restoration Mission. See: http://www.apostolicrestorationmission.
Need I say more? not one BIBLICAL reference not even a Bible of any version.
It is like I try to explain to people...you can look at a wall and ask people what color it is.. one will say white, one off white, one eggshell white, one antique white.... WHO IS RIGHT? The only way to find out is to look at the writing on the paint can. same with these issues... 2 tim 2:15 " Study to show thyself approved unto God." If you believe in something... Make sure you got God behind you..
The whole point is that you can take Bible verses that fundamentalists use to demonize gay people, go to earlier translations, and come to a different conclusion. Just because there isn't a verse in the KJV that say, "And I sayeth, homesexuals shall be treated the same as heterosexuals" doesn't mean I can't come to a different conclusion.
I know who I am, what I choose, and what I can or can't change. If you want to use the Bible to point fingers and say I'm a threat to the country, a demon, or whatever, that's your right. Just keep your opinions out of laws!
Just because there isn't a verse in the KJV that say, "And I sayeth, homesexuals shall be treated the same as heterosexuals" doesn't mean I can't come to a different conclusion.
I know who I am, what I choose, and what I can or can't change. If you want to use the Bible to point fingers and say I'm a threat to the country, a demon, or whatever, that's your right. Just keep your opinions out of laws!
There is your biggest problem. With you, and most gay Christians, its all about YOU fulfilling YOUR lusts and desires, NOT submission to God and His holy will for your life.
Mark 8:34 (NIV) Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me."
The whole point is that you can take Bible verses that fundamentalists use to demonize gay people, go to earlier translations, and come to a different conclusion. Just because there isn't a verse in the KJV that say, "And I sayeth, homesexuals shall be treated the same as heterosexuals" doesn't mean I can't come to a different conclusion.
I know who I am, what I choose, and what I can or can't change. If you want to use the Bible to point fingers and say I'm a threat to the country, a demon, or whatever, that's your right. Just keep your opinions out of laws!
Wow, you sure are defensive.. I have yet to "demonize gay people or tell you your a threat to the country." I am not attacking you as a person.. This is a forum.. that's all. You said earlier.. you got "saved" out of fear when you were younger... you post your resources behind your beliefs and I do the same... Nothing I have said here has been with malicious intent...I looked at your website, I tried to see things from your point of view.. I really did, ( and I do see your point of view...) I am not against "gay" people.. I know alot of them... probably as many as straight people.. I live in South florida... I do not go around condeming them.. or telling them they are GOING TO HELL.. but I do pray...and at certain times.. like in this forum.. do say that according to the Bible...they are living in sin.. but I do the same with my friends who live together out of marriage.. or go out and get drunk.. or my sister who dresses very very immodestly, or my husband who chews tobbaco. And I am able to admit.. that I did all of the above ( besides the tobbaco ) but when someone loved me enough to show me from the bible that I was doing wrong.. and that I was bought with a price.... I had to humble myself and get on my face, becaome as a little child.. and thank God for having patience with me.. That is all I am trying to tell you.. I honestly am not trying to attack you.. And I am not talking here as a IFB. although that is what I am.. I am talking to you as a sinner saved by grace...
the funny thing is.. I was raised catholic, went to catholic school my whole life...and one day a jehovah's witness pointed out that I should not be bowing to idols and praying to Mary.... then years later.. living in sin.. in an "adult" chatroom, a computer generated message about being bought by Jesus's blood flashed ( turned out to be a mormon message) then when I got the itch to learn more about Christ...I found a sermon ( not a "healing crusade" but a sermon by Benny Hinn, and that is how I heard the plan of salvation and got saved. and from there I began my daily walk with God that lead me to the Baptist church. So I am not knocking religion or a specific group of people... Just Loving my Saviour and wanting others to be with us in eternity.If God took the peolpe who were saved to heaven immedietly, who would be left to reach the lost? While the truth about sin hurts people.. It is STILL the truth. AND YE SHALL KNOW THE TRUTH, AND THE TRUTH SHALL MAKE YOU FREE. John 8:32
There is your biggest problem. With you, and most gay Christians, its all about YOU fulfilling YOUR lusts and desires, NOT submission to God and His holy will for your life.
Mark 8:34 (NIV) Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me."
What a load of bigotry! My desire is to spend my life in a loving relationship and raise our children. If you think my life is all about lust and sex, you're way off base.
Really, it's a double standard. Heterosexual Christians can get married, have it sanctioned by the government, have sex and love thier spouse, yet when I do the same, you claim it's only lust and desire. How DARE you! My relationship is based on love, plain and simple! I'm sorry you can't understand that.
The simple truth here is that YOU don't like gay people and use the Bible to attack me and everyone else who is gay. That's your OPINION! My church, which is overwhelmingly composed of heterosexuals, accepts me, my partner, and our children as a family. Luckily this country has freedom of religion. Don't like my church? Then don't attend! You can believe that aliens are going to come down and take you to a Waffle House on Mars, if you wish - you're free to worship and believe whatever you want.
The main problem with regressive, fundamentalist Christians is they seem unable to "live and let live". They feel they must convert everyone to their version of Christianity, if not by fear and coercion, then by law. My personal thought is they're going to lose their little "culture war" in the long run.
Wow, you sure are defensive.. I have yet to "demonize gay people or tell you your a threat to the country." I am not attacking you as a person.. This is a forum.. that's all. You said earlier.. you got "saved" out of fear when you were younger... you post your resources behind your beliefs and I do the same... Nothing I have said here has been with malicious intent...I looked at your website, I tried to see things from your point of view.. I really did, ( and I do see your point of view...) I am not against "gay" people.. I know alot of them... probably as many as straight people.. I live in South florida... I do not go around condeming them.. or telling them they are GOING TO HELL.. but I do pray...and at certain times.. like in this forum.. do say that according to the Bible...they are living in sin.. but I do the same with my friends who live together out of marriage.. or go out and get drunk.. or my sister who dresses very very immodestly, or my husband who chews tobbaco. And I am able to admit.. that I did all of the above ( besides the tobbaco ) but when someone loved me enough to show me from the bible that I was doing wrong.. and that I was bought with a price.... I had to humble myself and get on my face, becaome as a little child.. and thank God for having patience with me.. That is all I am trying to tell you.. I honestly am not trying to attack you.. And I am not talking here as a IFB. although that is what I am.. I am talking to you as a sinner saved by grace...
the funny thing is.. I was raised catholic, went to catholic school my whole life...and one day a jehovah's witness pointed out that I should not be bowing to idols and praying to Mary.... then years later.. living in sin.. in an "adult" chatroom, a computer generated message about being bought by Jesus's blood flashed ( turned out to be a mormon message) then when I got the itch to learn more about Christ...I found a sermon ( not a "healing crusade" but a sermon by Benny Hinn, and that is how I heard the plan of salvation and got saved. and from there I began my daily walk with God that lead me to the Baptist church. So I am not knocking religion or a specific group of people... Just Loving my Saviour and wanting others to be with us in eternity.If God took the peolpe who were saved to heaven immedietly, who would be left to reach the lost? While the truth about sin hurts people.. It is STILL the truth. AND YE SHALL KNOW THE TRUTH, AND THE TRUTH SHALL MAKE YOU FREE. John 8:32
I don't think you're a bad person, by any means. You believe what you believe. Why? I have no understanding of that - why anyone would believe that gay people are an abomination or whatever (not your words). You can never understand what it's like to be gay, assuming you're not, so I fail to understand how people can make judgements (or claim they don't, but the Bible and God judges) about something you can't truly understand. I stand by my opinion that many Christians use the Bible and religion to justify their dislike or hatred of gay people.
BTW, Benny Hinn is a scam artist televangelist and there's plenty of info out there to back that up. He's said such things as, "The Lord also tells me to tell you in the mid 90's, about '94-'95, no later than that, God will destroy the homosexual community of America. [audience applauds] But He will not destroy it - with what many minds have thought Him to be, He will destroy it with fire. And many will turn and be saved, and many will rebel and be destroyed."
BTW, Benny Hinn is a scam artist televangelist and there's plenty of info out there to back
LOL! SOMETHING WE FINALLY AGREE ON ! I was not implying that I agreed with any of those religions or people I named.. I was just saying that each of them opened up my eyes to specific truths I was unaware of.. In the overall picture...I had to read and study the bible, and see what it said.
If you don't know much about IFB churches, I will explain them. They are an extreme right-wing Baptist denomination that split from the other Baptist churches because they percieved them to becoming too worldy. Our beliefs are similar to regular Baptists, just with extreme legalism and conservatism
Ok, enough about all that other stuff. Let me ask you when you say extreme legalism.. what does that mean? like having to follow rules? I have heard people call ifb churches legalists, but I'm not exactly sure what they are refering to?
BTW, Benny Hinn is a scam artist televangelist and there's plenty of info out there to back
LOL! SOMETHING WE FINALLY AGREE ON ! I was not implying that I agreed with any of those religions or people I named.. I was just saying that each of them opened up my eyes to specific truths I was unaware of.. In the overall picture...I had to read and study the bible, and see what it said.
When I was in high school, we used to watch Bob Tilton on TV, strictly for entertainment value! We always laughed when he talked in tounges - whith a Southern accent! Never sent him any money though.
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) But I am willing to try to see others arguments.... So I went to this link, to see what it was all about.. I tried to find something solid and bible based.. but got nothing but "other peoples versions and interpretations of scripture."
