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And infinite woe is not according to finite sin. If a sin were to reach in
its consequences every inhabitant of earth, yet there would be a, limit to the
number injured. If it were to blast the happiness of the whole race through
every year and moment of their life on earth, still there would be a limit in
time as well in numbers. Count, therefore, the evil of sin as you will, it, cannot be added up to the infinite, either in quantity, quality or time ; and if
not,, then infinite endless punishment is not according to the
transgression—and Justice, therefore, which demands equity and fair dealing, repudiates it, and calls for a punishment proportionate to the wrong. The Justice of God
I actually believe God gives us over to our desires. Thus saith the Lord....You want a doctrine that keeps you in fear of me and to cast that fear on others then have it, but let me warn you it will own you and never let you go, it will crawl into every recess of your being.
God gave Israel a king when he made it clear to them by Samuel that one was there was there king.....God himself. He gave them Barabbas when they could have had king Jesus.
Modern biblical scholars have done their best to adjust the picture. They point out that Jesus himself, and even tetchy old St Paul, made no mention of “Hell” or “damnation” in the New Testament. The Greek words used there meant only “judgment” and “condemnation”; and only for “a long time”, aionios, not for ever.
Luke in the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man has the Rich Man ending up in Hades (as NIV translates it) but describes it as “agony in this fire” and “place of torment”. And Luke has Abraham say to Lazarus, “between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’” Sounds like the traditional hell to me.
In the story of the Sheep and the Goats, Matthew has the Lord say about the unrighteous, “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” If the punishment of the unrighteous is only temporary, then neither is the life of the righteous. The word αἰώνιον is used in both cases as can be seen here.
Many believe that the story of the Lazarus and the Rich Man is a parable and that it is a story the people of the region were familiar with and does not portray what happen when we die. For one thing, when believers die, they do not go to Abraham's bosom. Also there is nothing about an eternal hell here, only that there was a chasm that separated the rich man and Lazarus, nothing about it being an eternal condition.
The word used for eternal in some translations is aionios and means "of an age, relating to an age, age lasting, age during" and the same word is applied to life. Jesus said that aionios life is knowing the Only True God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent. This is the life that believers have during the ages, in our relationship with the Father and Jesus Christ. Immortality is not the same as aionios life, although if we have aionios life, we will have immortality in the age to come.
Other words are used to describe immortality in the New Testament. For example,
1 Corinthians 15
lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed;
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we -- we shall be changed:
53 for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, (aphtharsia ) and this mortal to put on immortality; (athanasia)
54 and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption (,aphtharsia ) and this mortal may have put on immortality (athanasia), then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, `The Death was swallowed up -- to victory;
55 where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'
for 1 Cor. 15:42 says the dead will be raised in "incorruption," and 1 Cor. 15:53 speaks of "deathlessness," or "immortality" (Greek: aphtharsia and athanasia)
We will be raised in incorruption and to immortality. Immortality = deathlessness
Aionios life that Jesus was talking about is not immortality (endless life) . This was a very important point when I first came to realize that all will be restored to God.
Aionios life is what believers have today, during the ages, but we are promised immortality (endless life) when Jesus returns. . Aionios life is life during the ages and when Jesus returns we will become incorruptible and immortal.
Punishment is what is experienced during the ages and it ends at the end of the ages.
Another thing to know is that all will have endless life when death is abolished. 1 Corinthians 15 speaks of a time when Jesus will abolish death.
Love this article. The Christian idea of hell is SO FULL OF CONTRADICTIONS.
And also...
Hell makes no sense.
I expect typical responses along the lines of "this is just softening of Christianity" and a whole host other fallacies that don't actually address the point.
Hell makes no sense to one who justifies his own wickedness.
It makes no sense to the person who has no conception of right and wrong and it makes no sense in a society dedicated to the suppression of justice. American society provides the perfect example. The USA is no longer a 'just' society, but has given itself almost totally to fairness. Consequently, debauchery flowers at an unheard of level.
God is just. This means He judges a person on his or her own merits or rebellion. God is not fair, meaning that he doesn't grade on a curve.
God does not dismiss sinful behavior simply because everybody else does it. God is JUST. God is not fair. The Bible says so over and over - and it isn't a Christian notion either.
The Old Testament is full of examples and records of the justice and unfairness of God. Take a long look at the record of the judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah. No human laws were broken by those communities (of which there were a total of five destroyed, not just the two mentioned in scripture). Each of those cities lived within the scope of their own laws. The Bible never says they were lawless - meaning that they disobeyed their own laws. It does say, however, that they violated God's law and were destroyed because of it.
It didn't begin or end with the Sodomites either. God's greatest example of JUST behavior is the punishment of His own people - the Hebrews. Over and over again He punishes His people for their disobedience.
Returning to hell; The idea isn't simply Judeo-Christian either. The human desire for justice permeates every society and nearly every religion. The hell of Islam is virtually the same as that of the Bible. Eternal justice is also reflected in the concept of Karma in eastern religions.
The ideal of justice is universal, the concept of hell nearly so. Should persons such as Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and Tojo be rewarded in eternity? Justice says they should not. Fairness says they should be honored as heroes.
In America, justice has been so diluted that even the definition of it has been debauched. We are now reaping the horrors of that misguided attitude. America is now a fascist police state and our once vaunted liberties have slipped into the history books. From now until the end of the nation - injustice will reign supreme and the justice of God will eventually intervene both on earth and in hell.
IF GOD DOES NOT JUDGE AMERICA, HE WILL HAVE TO APOLOGIZE TO SODOM AND GOMORRAH.
and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...
Many believe that the story of the Lazarus and the Rich Man is a parable and that it is a story the people of the region were familiar with and does not portray what happen when we die. For one thing, when believers die, they do not go to Abraham's bosom. Also there is nothing about an eternal hell here, only that there was a chasm that separated the rich man and Lazarus, nothing about it being an eternal condition.
The word used for eternal in some translations is aionios and means "of an age, relating to an age, age lasting, age during" and the same word is applied to life. Jesus said that aionios life is knowing the Only True God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent. This is the life that believers have during the ages, in our relationship with the Father and Jesus Christ. Immortality is not the same as aionios life, although if we have aionios life, we will have immortality in the age to come.
Other words are used to describe immortality in the New Testament. For example,
1 Corinthians 15
lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed;
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we -- we shall be changed:
53 for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, (aphtharsia ) and this mortal to put on immortality; (athanasia)
54 and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption (,aphtharsia ) and this mortal may have put on immortality (athanasia), then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, `The Death was swallowed up -- to victory;
55 where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'
for 1 Cor. 15:42 says the dead will be raised in "incorruption," and 1 Cor. 15:53 speaks of "deathlessness," or "immortality" (Greek: aphtharsia and athanasia)
We will be raised in incorruption and to immortality. Immortality = deathlessness
Aionios life that Jesus was talking about is not immortality (endless life) . This was a very important point when I first came to realize that all will be restored to God.
Aionios life is what believers have today, during the ages, but we are promised immortality (endless life) when Jesus returns. . Aionios life is life during the ages and when Jesus returns we will become incorruptible and immortal.
Punishment is what is experienced during the ages and it ends at the end of the ages.
Another thing to know is that all will have endless life when death is abolished. 1 Corinthians 15 speaks of a time when Jesus will abolish death.
God bless.
Which other parables should not be taken seriously? The people of the region would NOT be familiar with the idea of reward and punishment immediately after death. They were Jews as is obvious by Jesus referring to the bosom of Abraham and his reference to the Law and the Prophets just before this. Jews believed that the dead are dead until (as some of them believed) a future resurrection occurred. Not long before this (Lk 14) Jesus was in a Pharisee’s house.
In Matthew 25 the exact same word aionios is used in the same sentence to describe the fate of the righteous and the unrighteous. If the punishment of the unrighteous ends then so does the life of the righteous. Note that the reward and the punishment in Matthew are given out when the Son of Man returns. If the punishment of the unrighteous begins then, when is it supposed to end?
The plain fact is that Luke and Matthew do not tell the same story. Matthew has a very Jewish outlook and tells the Jewish version – future judgment with reward/punishment. Luke’s audience is mainly gentile and he tells a version based on Greek mythology familiar to his audience –reward/punishment now. Luke often turns Matthew upside down to make it clear to his audience that he is NOT telling Mathew’s story.
Hi, I never said that the parable should not be taken seriously. I shared that I don't believe that it is a description of an eternal hell.
Notes:
Jewish tradition taught that the righteous dead went to Abraham’s bosom in Sheol. Josephus during the 1st century AD confirmed this in his writings.
Jesus was speaking to Jewish leaders, not to the Church.
Luk 16:23-24 KJV And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Babylonian and Greek mythology influenced Jewish tradition. Jesus did not teach or correct the Pharisees’ understanding of the doctrine of Hell, many were rebellious and beyond instruction. Instead, He used Jewish tradition popular at that time, to accentuate the moral of the parable. A Quote from Andrew MacLaren
Luke 16:19-31 'II. In the second part of the narrative, our Lord follows the two, who had been so near each other and yet so separated, into the land beyond the grave.It is to be especially noticed that, in doing so, He adopts the familiar Rabbinical teaching as to Hades. He does not thereby stamp these conceptions of the state of the dead with His assent; for the purpose of the narrative is not to reveal the secrets of that land, but to impress the truth of retribution for the sin in question. It would not be to a group of Pharisaic listeners that He would have unveiled that world. He takes their own notions of it-angel bearers, Abraham’s bosom, the two divisions in Hades, the separation, and yet communication, between them. These are Rabbis’ fancies, not Christ’s revelations. The truths which He wished to force home lie in the highly imaginative conversation between the rich man and Abraham, which also has its likeness in many a Rabbinical legend.'
I shared earlier in the post above Choir Loft's post, that aionios refers to of or relating to an age or ages. Aionios punishment is related to the age or ages. It does not last forever because Eph. 1 speaks of a time when all are to be reunited in Jesus Christ. I am not trying to turn this into a UR thread but just sharing because scriptures like the passage below tell me that punishment is not eternal.
Ephesians1:9having made known to us the secret of His **will, according to His good pleasure, that He purposed in Himself,10 in regard to the dispensation of the fulness of the times, to**bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth -- in him;11 in whom also we did obtain an inheritance, being foreordained according to the purpose of Him who the all things is working according to the counsel of His will,(Young's Literal)
It is believed that God's plan is to*reunite*all things in Christ, both things in the heavens and things on the earth
.*to bring into one=anakephalaioomai=to be reduced to a head or sum total.*In the mid voice-to gather together again in one, to reunite under one head*(as in Ephesians 1:10) source-Hebrew Greek Key Word Study BibleWhat does reunite and gather together again mean?In Ephesians 1:10 God is said ἀνακεφαλαιώσασθαι τά πάντα ἐν τῷ Χριστῷ, to*bring together again for himself (note the middle) all things and beings (hitherto disunited by sin) into one combined state of fellowship in Christ, the universal bond*(cf. Meyer or Ellicott on Ephesians, the passage cited); (Protevangelium Jacobi 13εἰς ἐμέ ἀνεκεφαλαιώθη ἡ ἱστορία Ἀδάμ, where cf. Thilo).*Source:*Strong's Greek: 346. ?????????????? (anakephalaioó) -- to sum up, gather up
**will= thelema=God's gracious disposition towards something, what God Himself does of His own good pleasure, what one wishes or has determined shall be done*of the purpose of God to bless mankind through Christ*of what God wishes to be done by us*commands, preceptswill, choice, inclination, desire, pleasure, denotes resolve- the will of God that must be done.
NA Greek Lexicon, Hebrew/Greek Key Word Study
Aionios life is related to the age or ages. Jesus says that aionios life is knowing the One and Only True God and Jesus Christ who He sent. It is the life that believers have today and in the age to come. We receive immortality when we are raised to be immortal, at the resurrection. Aionios life and immortality are not the same thing. Please see the above post. God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 09-28-2014 at 10:53 AM..
Translations have nothing to do with it. Whether Univeralists like it or not (and they don't), neither the Greek word aionios or the Hebrew word olam always refer to a limited period of time. And 'eternity' is an endless age as opposed to a temporal age.
And these arguments just go on without end on this forum. Count me out. Those who go to the lake of fire will be there for endless duration.
In other words, Mike555, you choose to ignore the original meaning of the language based upon cultural context, because those meanings disagree with your adherence to the 1500 year misguided tradition of eternal punishment.
I continue to wonder why it is SO important to the hellfire and damnation crowd that there be a hell, where people are punished eternally.
PS there is no Satan as has come to us from medieval tradition. Satan was an aspect of El, as referred to in Job. Satan is that aspect of the psyche that provides alternatives to what Freud referred to as the Ego. I'm sure you hear that internal voice now and again questioning some action or other you are considering.
How do I know this? My own reading and long conversations with my son who spent two years in Israel studying Torah. I find it sad that some Christians continue to act as if the Jews dont know anything about the Old Testament.
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