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ok, I was hesitant to post this, but this thread just keeps reminding me of this video so what the heck, I'm posting it. It's mostly for the humor and down to earthness. Hope it doesn't offend. I don't dislike Joel Osteen, personally. But this video made me laugh, because I understand what he's saying. Sometimes it IS difficult to produce the fruits of the spirit... in the flesh:
I think Joel Osteen has a good heart, but I guess I just don't quite get his message. It's refreshing to see someone talking about God loving us and seeing us as valuable, instead of people saying God sees us as dirty rags. On the other hand... it just seems a little too... scrubbed and sanitized and glittery and perfect and not so much, gritty, real life. I mean, I'm imaging him preaching all of these things (I just watched one of his sermons) and imagining myself as different types of people with different types of circumstances. It reminds me a lot of the "name it and claim it" as if this life is all about "blessings" and whatnot. With that said, we all have something we can offer another... take what helps you, and leave the rest behind. Maybe his message is something that could help someone who is in deep despair. You just never know who or what may help another.
It's funny, but Joel Osteen has the opposite effect on me that he does on Martin Zender. Even though, I wonder about his message and his motives, I can't help but like the guy.
peace,
sparrow
I don't think God expects us to love everybody, what He does want is for us not to hate anyone because it destroys us, not the other person, but us.
I have not been here long but I agree with your comment about the harm that can result from many of the post on this forum.
I do wonder why you think one needs to attended a service in person rather than watch on TV or read his writings. Could you explain why that would cause one to have a different opinion of the message?
Church is more than the message, and people are not there to judge the talent.
The people should participate in the worship - whether it's singing, prayer, conversing and sharing testimonies with others...
JO doesn't just come out, preach for 25 minutes and leave. He speaks at the beginning of the service, there are others that may pray or present other material.
If I remember correctly, there will be a theme for the day - the music and the other material will support the message, and one's heart is more prepared to received the message.
I don't think God expects us to love everybody, what He does want is for us not to hate anyone because it destroys us, not the other person, but us.
I agree, hate destroys. Non-love is destructive. Love rebuilds.
And I do believe that we are to love our neighbor as ourself and I believe our neighbor is all of creation. We may not like some folks but loving is putting into practice being kind, gentle, patient, long-suffering, etc. Sometimes it comes easy. Other times it can be a struggle. Anyway, the video was just some humor about the human condition. (This struggle, the two parts of us that war against each other. The flesh and the spirit.)
Church is more than the message, and people are not there to judge the talent.
The people should participate in the worship - whether it's singing, prayer, conversing and sharing testimonies with others...
JO doesn't just come out, preach for 25 minutes and leave. He speaks at the beginning of the service, there are others that may pray or present other material.
If I remember correctly, there will be a theme for the day - the music and the other material will support the message, and one's heart is more prepared to received the message.
I fail to see how what others do and what you sing changes the message of the preacher. I have seen services where the singing and build up helped people enter into an emotional state that kept them agreeing with the preacher and crowd no matter what was said. It is a common practice in many religious services these day's. If you need all that to be able to get your message by someone then we need to isolate your message and examine what it really is. I don't recall Jesus having a singing service for 45 minutes to work up the crowd before He presented His message. Something to think about!
I don't think God expects us to love everybody, what He does want is for us not to hate anyone because it destroys us, not the other person, but us.
If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.1John 4:20
I fail to see how what others do and what you sing changes the message of the preacher. I have seen services where the singing and build up helped people enter into an emotional state that kept them agreeing with the preacher and crowd no matter what was said. It is a common practice in many religious services these day's. If you need all that to be able to get your message by someone then we need to isolate your message and examine what it really is. I don't recall Jesus having a singing service for 45 minutes to work up the crowd before He presented His message. Something to think about!
Regarding the red - It doesn't change the message. It changes the hearer. It's called worship.
Regarding the blue - They also killed Him... so what's your point?
Regarding the red - It doesn't change the message. It changes the hearer. It's called worship.
Regarding the blue - They also killed Him... so what's your point?
The point is, we were discussing the message of the person. I contend you can understand and analyze a message without adding singing and music and other outside influences. If one is depending on getting the hearer in a mood or atmosphere in order to receive a message, then that message really needs to be examined on it's own.
History has shown those who pay attention, how such things as singing, marching, and crowds influence the hearer in a way that allows a message they would otherwise reject or question to be accepted. As you correctly pointed out, these things only change the hearer and make them more receptive to the message. That is not always a good thing. I noted that Jesus did not use such devices to present His message.
I am simply suggesting you need to remove the psychological effects a message is wrapped up in and examine the message on it's own. If it is truth, it shall stand the test.
Perhaps I should have had you sing a few songs with me before I posted! I am just trying to get some to think about what they are saying.
Olsteen's messages - many of which I actually like despite being an atheist - is ruined by his lifestyle.
I've said it before elsewhere ... but preaching and writing books about God and Christianity (if you are a preacher) should not be a monetarily lucrative career. Jesus didn't have warm and fuzzy feelings for the wealthy to begin with. Imagine how he would feel about rich preachers getting wealthy off the back of God.
Bottom line here is that if preaching can make you a multi-millionaire, people can get into the "business" for all the wrong reasons. Teaching is an excellent example - no one in their right mind would ever go into the teaching profession with its high standards, huge responsibility, and expensive education requirements just to make $25k per year to start ... unless you REALLY wanted to teach. Not make money. Teach.
How can we really know for sure, no matter what the guy says, that he's not in it simply for the money. It's not as though he's living a modest life, having a strong middle class lifestyle without tons of frills and showy embarrassment of riches.
They bought a $10.5 million estate in River Oaks, probably a suburb of Houston (not entirely sure about that) while maintaining their old residence in Tanglewood (most people have to sell their old property to afford a new one) ... and now they are selling a half-acre vacant lot next door to their property for $1.1 million. LOL!
I'm sorry, but when preachers live this opulently, they lose sight of their message, and "prosperity gospel" is just a baby step up from "fire and brimstone preaching."
Here's why:
At Lakewood Church, Joel Osteen proclaims,"It's God's will for you to live in prosperity instead of poverty."
Hmm, yes he does. So what does that say about the people who ARE in poverty? In a nation already wracked by selfishness, greed, and an obsession with money and materialism, the last thing we need is a megachurch preacher endorsing more of the same.
Prosperity gospel hints at blaming the poor for their own misfortunes. They aren't right with God. If they were good Christians, they would be prosperous. Only those who God thinks deserves to be poor ... are poor! So why should we help them? Why should our tax dollars go to funding welfare and disability or even Social Security? (And hence states like Texas and most of the South do NOT have a good track record for helping the poor.)
And megachurches. Bah! Here where I live, my now 91 year-old grandmother can't get to church anymore. So her former pastor comes to her house and sits with her in the living room, ministering to her one-on-one. You're not going to get that from a megachurch preacher. You'll be lucky to get a corporate apology card stating something like, "Due to the huge volume of requests ..."
Christianity has provided a lot of charlatans a lot of money.
This may be the only time we agree on anything. "Milk Buckets" is an embarrassment to Christianity. I doubt that he even believes in God. He would be terrified if he did.
Olsteen's messages - many of which I actually like despite being an atheist - is ruined by his lifestyle.
I've said it before elsewhere ... but preaching and writing books about God and Christianity (if you are a preacher) should not be a monetarily lucrative career. Jesus didn't have warm and fuzzy feelings for the wealthy to begin with. Imagine how he would feel about rich preachers getting wealthy off the back of God.
Bottom line here is that if preaching can make you a multi-millionaire, people can get into the "business" for all the wrong reasons. Teaching is an excellent example - no one in their right mind would ever go into the teaching profession with its high standards, huge responsibility, and expensive education requirements just to make $25k per year to start ... unless you REALLY wanted to teach. Not make money. Teach.
How can we really know for sure, no matter what the guy says, that he's not in it simply for the money. It's not as though he's living a modest life, having a strong middle class lifestyle without tons of frills and showy embarrassment of riches.
They bought a $10.5 million estate in River Oaks, probably a suburb of Houston (not entirely sure about that) while maintaining their old residence in Tanglewood (most people have to sell their old property to afford a new one) ... and now they are selling a half-acre vacant lot next door to their property for $1.1 million. LOL!
I'm sorry, but when preachers live this opulently, they lose sight of their message, and "prosperity gospel" is just a baby step up from "fire and brimstone preaching."
Here's why:
At Lakewood Church, Joel Osteen proclaims,"It's God's will for you to live in prosperity instead of poverty."
Hmm, yes he does. So what does that say about the people who ARE in poverty? In a nation already wracked by selfishness, greed, and an obsession with money and materialism, the last thing we need is a megachurch preacher endorsing more of the same.
Prosperity gospel hints at blaming the poor for their own misfortunes. They aren't right with God. If they were good Christians, they would be prosperous. Only those who God thinks deserves to be poor ... are poor! So why should we help them? Why should our tax dollars go to funding welfare and disability or even Social Security? (And hence states like Texas and most of the South do NOT have a good track record for helping the poor.)
And megachurches. Bah! Here where I live, my now 91 year-old grandmother can't get to church anymore. So her former pastor comes to her house and sits with her in the living room, ministering to her one-on-one. You're not going to get that from a megachurch preacher. You'll be lucky to get a corporate apology card stating something like, "Due to the huge volume of requests ..."
No thanks.
I suppose a poor man preaching the "prosperity gospel" would not be as effective. But to the point of blaming the poor for their lack of prosperity. That is in line with much of the teachings of a segment of religion today. They teach that God wants everyone to be healed. Except you must have enough faith to be healed. Often that faith has a price tag attached as well. Then when you are not healed, they can blame your lack of faith rather than God. When you teach a false concept you have to have a scapegoat and who better than the poor ******* you are teaching it to?
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