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I agree some leaders in the church forget we have one leader in Jesus and use Gods word to divide, tear down, scare, support killings, promote false teachings, etc.
I like to know though do you think God also wants us to just live our lives the best way we see fit without ANY direction or instruction? This is a sincere question and like to get your personal thoughts on this. Even myself who stopped being a part of a religious org I thought were teaching things not supported in the bible but still receive and accept counsel from more spiritually mature knowledgeable Christians on certain decisions and scriptures that readjust my previous thoughts and understanding.
FREE WILL is a really great idea. It is the only way to assure we are doing what we do for the greater good. Otherwise, someone could claim we are "predestined" to conform to God's will.
I believe we either accept the concept of good or we reject it and embrace evil. The reasons are varied and many and none really matter unless you are a sociologist or just curious.
But is is free will that drives us to choose one or the other. We do good because we want to, not because of some external reward or instruction / guide book tells us how or why to be good.
God gives us stories, guides and direction to affirm our choice and to remind those who have rejected good they still have a choice. I believe with God (whatever your vision of God is) it is NEVER a mandate, but always an option for us to help our neighbor and build community.
FREE WILL is a really great idea. It is the only way to assure we are doing what we do for the greater good. Otherwise, someone could claim we are "predestined" to conform to God's will.
I believe we either accept the concept of good or we reject it and embrace evil. The reasons are varied and many and none really matter unless you are a sociologist or just curious.
But is is free will that drives us to choose one or the other. We do good because we want to, not because of some external reward or instruction / guide book tells us how or why to be good.
God gives us stories, guides and direction to affirm our choice and to remind those who have rejected good they still have a choice. I believe with God (whatever your vision of God is) it is NEVER a mandate, but always an option for us to help our neighbor and build community.
Actually I agree free will is an underrated gift and separates us from robots, although I read the other day they (including a situation with NASA) are now making computers and robots to have more free will, maybe T2 was not far off. LOL JK
However, what are your thoughts about these points...
1. You mentioned the reasons why we accept good or reject don't matter unless we're sociologist or curious. I think we can agree that all Christians, and people in general, are non degree sociologists and obviously curious. What is sociology but curiosity and the study of human social relationships which is diverse and can include religion, the family state, common culture, and stability of change in societies. As Christians it's obvious from "Christianity" being a subject on this forum we are not only curious but want to know how others feel, think about bible teachings but also how current events might even relate to scripture. We also look at ones who have no regard for human life, false prophets /teachers, hypocritical, or live in ways contrary to the bible and sometimes wonder why. I know I talked to ones when they had questions about why people are so evil, especially including the ISIS situation. This is not wrong in itself since 1 Pet 1:12 mentions even the angels eagerly watch things happen on earth especially with regards to Gods word and prophecies. Now I agree that a level of discernment on thinking too much on certain individuals intentions is not productive and can lead to gossiping or judging but overall it's human nature to be inquisitive even if we ourselves might not be as much.
2. You mentioned we serve God because we want to and not because of reward or instruction. I also agree to a certain extent. I came to realize myself, serving God should not ONLY be about a reward or out of fear since God wants us to serve him out of love and appreciation. But regarding doing it for instruction what are your thoughts on 2 Tim 3:16? It lays out the purpose of the bible "All Scripture is inspired for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness". So just like many government laws are to protect us and others, prevent anarchy and maintain some structure so I believe the bible is beneficial and we use it to help guide our lives since we can see the benefits and because we know by doing so we please God. Now some might say we should already WANT TO but the bible at Gen 8:21 says from birth on every inclination of the heart is evil so by nature we do NOT want to serve almighty God but rather serve the god of this world. When we understand everyday the heart is treacherous as the bible mentions and how taking in spiritual material, reflection on Gods word it does assist us doing the right thing. Otherwise, couldn't we be saying we do not need God in our lives since it's us that chooses to know whats wrong or right? Adam and Eve thought that and it didn't end so well for them.
Also, what are your thoughts about Phil 3:13,14? Now to my understanding this applied to those with heavenly calling but that was his "prize" or reward as a goal. Also 1 Cor 9:24 talks about running the race that you may win the prize, now what was the prize or reward was he speaking? Was it ONLY for the satisfaction of being good? When I compare my bible studies with discussions with others online I sometimes get the sense us as humans are the ones who take the joy out of serving God now and for future rewards. Instead of showing beautiful scriptures such as Ps 37:9-11, or Isaiah that mentions no more wars or animals being at peace with kids or Revelation about how dead loved ones will be reunited and living in peace many instead paint God as a cold task master. The bible speaks of God as a happy God, a God of love. While God expects us to serve him to the best of our ability and obey his commands that benefit us he also REWARDS us now as spoken of in Matt 7:11 but also in the future and actually WANTS US to look forward to such rewards as mentioned in his word. In the current sense we get the reward of being happier people in general, although we suffer just as the evil do, as oppose to ones who live as criminals or other ways contrary to Gods laws. However I myself look forward to future blessings or as the bible says "keep your eyes on the prize". In my research and understanding I found nothing wrong with ones using that as one of their motivations as well.
3. You lastly mentioned you believe with God it is NEVER a mandate, but always an option for us to help our neighbor and build community. What are your thoughts on Matt 25:34-40? The example set was to the extent we did it to his brothers we did it to him. Now, someone might say yeah but he was talking about our brothers but do we really take that ONLY as such? Did Jesus only feed, teach and show concern for his followers? Do we think Jesus would condone our rationalizing to only "take care of our own", why even the bible says to love our enemies and God makes it rain and allows food for the righteous and unrighteous. To me it shows to the extent, as one person earlier said, agape where we help feed, care, and teach ones not able and that would include those in our communities. I agree it's not up to us to BUILD a community but building up a community through our conduct and actions would be biblical since it glorifies Gods name and serves as a witness to the power of his word.
I appreciate your response, it made me dig into the bible and I also even agree on some points and maybe even more so if I misunderstood your points. I enjoy sharing viewpoints as we are told to keep testing we're in the faith. I look forward to your responses.
As this thread has so thoroughly proven, Christians tend to define themselves based on what they disagree on. Then they like to claim, "I'm right, you're wrong. I'm a real Christian and you're not."
Those that believe in the Trinity tend to reject all those who do not.
Those who deny the Trinity tend to reject those those who believe in it.
Those who believe in being saved Born Again Christian style tend to reject all who disagree with them.
Those who reject the Born Again viewpoint tend to reject Born Again Christians.
I could go on for pages. We're always so busy rejecting each other and damning one another to hell that we seldom take the time to talk about what we all agree on -- and I think that's supposed to be the whole point of this thread.
We all agree that Jesus of Nazareth was and is the Messiah and Savior. We might disagree on the specific characteristics of Jesus, but I think we agree that he is extremely significant and the founder of our religion(s).
We all agree that the God of Israel is the one true God. We might disagree on how accurately the OT depiction of him is.
We all agree that God expects us to be good people.
We all generally agree on what it means to be a good person. We might disagree on some of the nitpicky details, but none of us is going to insist that serial killers and serial rapists are good people.
We all agree that the Bible is an inspired text. We will disagree on how perfect or infallible it is, but we do agree that it's important.
I think we all agree that there is such a thing as the Holy Spirit.
Why is it so important to Christians (in general) to fuss and fume about what we don't agree on??
KJV 1 Timothy 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
KJV 2 Timothy 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
KJV 1 Corinthians 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
we can agree that people dont like it when you call them on their stuff.
we can also agree that if you are a good person and call people on their stuff, they will like you a lot more after you are dead
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in Heaven, “Now have come salvation and strength, and the Kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ; for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night.
Regarding the bold . . . Yes . . . but guided by and constrained by agape "love of God and each other." If we live under the constraints of agape love . . . we cannot sin or harm anyone. Our lives can be whatever we can make of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelDante
Thanks for sharing. It's very rare, nowadays at least, to find people like yourself who believe so passionately in agape, or unconditional love. It takes work, I know for me at least, to understand this isn't just a passing thought about others but a selfless love, a love that is passionately committed to the well-being of the other. So we agree that our lives should, within reason of course, reflect it as Jesus laid out a fine example.
So, and correct me if I'm wrong, you believe if people just show unconditional love to others they can live their lives however they choose? If that is not what you're saying please clarify. If that is a correct statement, doesn't the bible show that is just one identifier of being his disciples? Jesus we can both agree set a perfect example of showing love and concern to others, even ones who the Jews thought were unworthy (i.e tax collectors, prostitutes, etc). He even shed tears at Lazarus death when he saw how it affected others even though he knew he was going to bring him back to life but his love and concern for others was just one aspect of his service while on earth.
If you ask 50 people what was Jesus most known for you will get many different ones outside of agape. Some might say his preaching work, some his teaching, some his application of obeying all Gods commandments, his strength, his knowledge of scripture and some his reliance on God. To me, while agape is something we ALL should strive for it was just ONE identifier of his disciples but not the only requirement. Even if someone truly believes they have agape one can STILL sin and fall short of Gods approval. If a person claims to live by agape but still lives in willful disobedience in other facets of his like they could still be disapproved by God. Gal 5:22 comes to mind since many focus on the fruits of the spirit mentioned but neglect to read Gal 5:19-21. This scripture, along with 1 Cor 6:9-11, mention things that God not only disapproves but also says these ones will not inherit his kingdom. Some even mix up agape with eros or philia instead which actually could be inappropriate.
So going by this scripture do you think only evil people do those things mentioned or is it safe to say that even good people, maybe even those showing agape, might also live sinful lives either intentionally or unintentionally? I don't know about you but I need to pray for forgiveness or repent when I fall short and I do try to live with agape to all. It sounds nice to make our lives whatever we want however one would do well to do things that fall within bible principles, so in that sense we cannot do whatever we want our lives to be since we're still under scriptural principles of the bible. If we don't observe that then we lose agape since we show less concern for God and others and focus only on our wants and needs. See how that works?
True neither you nor I or anyone can say which individuals God will ultimately show mercy to since one, that's not our responsibility and two the bible says both unrighteous and unrighteous will be brought back to life. However what is clear from my reading the bible is that just being a good person is not enough to really please God. It takes work since Jesus mentions the hardships of following his example as well as setting the example of other things besides love that should be imitated. Just my thought but we can't just sit on the sideline and let others do the heavy lifting and still want to have the same rewards. Matt 7:21,22 comes to mind. Some only apply this scripture to "leaders" or ones who say they do miracles but it's also applicable for all of us since it shows we can think we are his servants by doing things we think are worthy but God can still reject us. We must join our brothers and sisters in not only having or showing love and concern but also repenting of our sins, sharing Gods word to others and obeying bible commands, even if that requires we change our lifestyle or we fall short on sometimes. So it's my thoughts, based on the bible, even with agape we can still be sinful and need of repentance as no man or woman is perfect. However agape is an excellent first step towards God and a way to improve our own happiness more than if we didn't apply that to our lives. I like to hear your thoughts on this.
Sorry but you will never get me to agree that the biblical way of life has any relevance to today's world. Agape love is all-encompassing . . . that is why only the two commandments are necessary. If we actually live our lives (whatever we do and however we do it) in agape "love of God and each other" daily and repent when we don't . . . we are disciples of Christ. When we sin we must genuinely repent. That will never change. If we don't it will be refined out as dross after our death and it won't be pleasant. God does not want a bunch of cookie-cutter people stagnated in the 1st century lifestyles and cultural mores. That is ridiculous. He wants infinite variety and diversity . . . but ALL in the same Spirit . . . agape love. The one Spirit that unites us all whatever we do and however we live is the Spirit of agape love because God IS agape love.
1 Corinthians 12:4-13King James Version (KJV)
4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Sorry but you will never get me to agree that the biblical way of life has any relevance to today's world. Agape love is all-encompassing . . . that is why only the two commandments are necessary. If we actually live our lives (whatever we do and however we do it) in agape "love of God and each other" daily and repent when we don't . . . we are disciples of Christ. When we sin we must genuinely repent. That will never change. If we don't it will be refined out as dross after our death and it won't be pleasant. God does not want a bunch of cookie-cutter people stagnated in the 1st century lifestyles and cultural mores. That is ridiculous. He wants infinite variety and diversity . . . but ALL in the same Spirit . . . agape love. The one Spirit that unites us all whatever we do and however we live is the Spirit of agape love because God IS agape love.
1 Corinthians 12:4-13King James Version (KJV)
4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
I think what dante is trying to say is show you faith by you works? King James Bible
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Not sure though?
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What is sociology but curiosity and the study of human social relationships which is diverse and can include religion, the family state, common culture, and stability of change in societies. As Christians it's obvious from "Christianity" being a subject on this forum we are not only curious but want to know how others feel, think about bible teachings but also how current events might even relate to scripture. We also look at ones who have no regard for human life, false prophets /teachers, hypocritical, or live in ways contrary to the bible and sometimes wonder why. I know I talked to ones when they had questions about why people are so evil, especially including the ISIS situation. This is not wrong in itself since 1 Pet 1:12 mentions even the angels eagerly watch things happen on earth especially with regards to Gods word and prophecies. Now I agree that a level of discernment on thinking too much on certain individuals intentions is not productive and can lead to gossiping or judging but overall it's human nature to be inquisitive even if we ourselves might not be as much.
