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What of her? 1 Samuel is a book recording history, and nowhere is her actions condoned, in fact just the opposite. She sinned in her actions and Saul sinned in his actions. The Old Testament is chock full of people who did the wrong thing or chose the path away from God.
And Samuel sinned by actually appearing and speaking?...And what of Kabbala?...
I do not go around saying that it is "OK with God" to Kill someone because of their beliefs. I doubt that if there were a god, and if this god were good, then this god had nothing to do with writing this part of exodus. I think it is more of a excuse that Ancient Jewish Tribal leaders exercised so as to prevent any threat to their own authority. If there were a good "god", then a good god would not have such an ego as to feel threatened if someone does not believe in him. Humans would, but god would not.
I am not a hateful person JJ. I leave hatred to others, religious or not. My life's work is proof of my love for my fellow man. Remember, you are the one who made the insane post in #2. We all read what you wrote, and it is on permanent record in the internet.
God commanded that adulterers be stoned to death. God is perfectly just and fair. Just because today's society has trivialized sin does not mean God has. It is still worthy of death.
The fact is JJ, YOU deserve to be in that circle, but God may have decided to have mercy on you and let you out. Now you are finding others to put in the same circle from which you were released.
You are confusing what I actually said.
My original statement was this:
Commanding that sorcerers be killed was not an immoral act for God.
Here you are faced with only two options if you wish to disagree.
(1) Either discard the Biblical text as fiction or
(2) claim that God sinned and is therefore imperfect.
Now I really don't see any evidence to reasonable conclude either of those options correct.
Really the issue here is crime and punishment, a penal code for an entire nation set up by the governing authority. As I have previously stated, we have the exact same system today. No one finds it insane or horrendous that our government routinely locks people away for their entire lives or even puts them to death in some cases. This strange cognitive dissonance must have some foundation, some piece that people are missing. I think, judging from the posts here that certain premises must be proven in order to make a claim of immorality on the part of God, assuming the text is true.
First, is witchcraft and sorcery a sin against God?
Scripture clearly states a resounding, unequivocal affirmation in Deuteronomy:
“When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you." (Deut. 18:9-12)
Secondly, was the punishment fair and just? If you believe God, then the answer is yes. I don't know any Christians who think that sinning against God is trivial or slight. In fact, the Scripture speaks of just the opposite:
"Do not be deceived; God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction. The one who sows to please God's Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life." (Gal. 6.7-8).
"The soul that sins shall die." (Ez. 18.4)
"The wages of sin is death." (Rom. 6.23)
"Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death."(James 1:15)
The Scripture is clear that sin, which is lawlessness brings with it the consequences of death.
So getting back to ancient Israel and now the nation is becoming a theocracy with God as the government, the authority and now He must hand down all the civil laws to His people. Here, we see He is completely consistent in mirroring his morality from spiritual truths to civil laws. Acts of sin were made into civil laws which carried the penalty worthy of the crime. The crimes in this case were not crimes against a government, but against God! This is not a small or trivial thing, it was an offense of the highest caliber and the punishment was completely fair and justified. Don't forget that the mosaic law required witnesses, judges and multiple fail-safes to protect people from false accusations. Even in the case of stoning, the ones who brought the charges were the ones who cast the stones so that if they were deceivers, the innocent blood would be on their own hands.
All of that being said, this was a theocracy under the Old Covenant and does not apply today. The punishment for adultery and witchcraft and other detestable sins are still in place today, but because of Jesus, God has delayed the punishment until we leave this earth, giving everyone an opportunity to receive the life-giving grace of Christ.
God loves us, and has loved all of us from the very beginning. The immutable character of God's justice works in tandem with His perfect love and goodness to bring those who believe into His presence for all eternity.
Yeah, seems a little suspicious doesn't it? I mean, these posts by JJ are so totally over the top insane, you gotta start to wonder if JJ's purposely taking things to the most absurd level, perhaps to make the point that assuming that everything within the bible is good and true is a dangerous thing. I say, well done. You had me going, JJ.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
I would wish that this were true, Pleroo . . . but I fear it is not!
I guess not.
JJ_Maxx, did you honestly mean you couldn't think of any logical reason why people shouldn't be burned at the stake if you thought it had been commanded by God? You seriously can't think of ANY reason why it's not okay to burn people?
And, if so, you never answered my other question... How would you determine that it HAD been commanded by God?
JJ_Maxx, did you honestly mean you couldn't think of any logical reason why people shouldn't be burned at the stake if you thought it had been commanded by God? You seriously can't think of ANY reason why it's not okay to burn people?
And, if so, you never answered my other question... How would you determine that it HAD been commanded by God?
I would disobey someone telling me to burn someone at the stake, yes, OF COURSE. I would assume that whomever I was hearing from was NOT God. If a god wants someone burned at the stake, let him do his own dirty work.
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Do you believe Moses existed and spoke with God?
The question that would have been important for Moses would be how did he determine that he was speaking with God at any given point? How did he determine that what he was being told was coming from God? And WAY MORE IMPORTANTLY, how would YOU determine that if you were being told to burn someone at the stake, that it was God telling you to do so? And WHY would you obey that?
I would disobey someone telling me to burn someone at the stake, yes, OF COURSE. I would assume that whomever I was hearing from was NOT God. If a god wants someone burned at the stake, let him do his own dirty work.
So you would disobey God. Got it. It's a contradiction, of course, to assume that you are more moral than God or that God is capable of being immoral. This would contradict his immutable attributes and that is impossible by definition. The issue is that you place your personal version of morality upon God without reason and force Him to follow it.
Can God act immorally? Yes or No? If God can not act immorally, then what does it say of your morality if you disagree? It would make you wrong and God right, every time logically speaking. You skirt around this by denying Gods deity so when He says something you personally disagree with, you claim it isn't Him saying it. Why does it surprise me that people such as yourself take the shears to the Scriptures, molding into your own desires? Remarkable.
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The question that would have been important for Moses would be how did he determine that he was speaking with God at any given point? How did he determine that what he was being told was coming from God? And WAY MORE IMPORTANTLY, how would YOU determine that if you were being told to burn someone at the stake, that it was God telling you to do so? And WHY would you obey that?
Jesus quoted His Father God as speaking through the words of the OT. God did actually speak to Moses and gave him the Law. It's not a hypothetical. The Law given to Moses was perfectly moral and right because it was given by a perfectly moral and right God. In order to refute this, you either have to reject the Scripture and therefore Jesus, or claim that God can act immorally.
Actually, I said I would assume it was not God. Why would you assume that whomever was telling you to burn someone at the stake -- to TORTURE someone -- was God?
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It's a contradiction, of course, to assume that you are more moral than God or that God is capable of being immoral. This would contradict his immutable attributes and that is impossible by definition. The issue is that you place your personal version of morality upon God without reason and force Him to follow it.
Please, tell me what is moral about commanding someone to torture someone else?
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Can God act immorally? Yes or No? If God can not act immorally, then what does it say of your morality if you disagree? It would make you wrong and God right, every time logically speaking. You skirt around this by denying Gods deity so when He says something you personally disagree with, you claim it isn't Him saying it. Why does it surprise me that people such as yourself take the shears to the Scriptures, molding into your own desires? Remarkable.
Yes, I desire NOT to inflict unimaginable pain on another human being. If you find that immoral, you have a problem.
Quote:
Jesus quoted His Father God as speaking through the words of the OT. God did actually speak to Moses and gave him the Law. It's not a hypothetical. The Law given to Moses was perfectly moral and right because it was given by a perfectly moral and right God. In order to refute this, you either have to reject the Scripture and therefore Jesus, or claim that God can act immorally.
So, how did Moses determine that it was God speaking to him? And, again, more importantly, how would you?
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I guess not. 
