Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
If God is speaking to you, you know it, just as Moses did and Mary did and all the prophets did. Do you deny that they knew God was speaking to them? Are you claiming that Moses was speaking to someone other than God? These are claims I would expect coming from an atheist.
The truth is that it is not necessary for me to know God was speaking to me, only that if He did speak to me, I would know it and I would follow what He says.
Baloney. People with damaged internal moral compasses are often convinced that God is communicating with them and do evil things in the name of God as a result. If you do not have any criteria for discerning whether or not something is truly of God, which you apparently do not, you are in trouble.
Baloney. People with damaged internal moral compasses are often convinced that God is communicating with them and do evil things in the name of God as a result. If you do not have any criteria for discerning whether or not something is truly of God, which you apparently do not, you are in trouble.
So you are saying it is impossible to know if God is speaking to you? If that is true, then you reject the Scripture?
So you are saying it is impossible to know if God is speaking to you? If that is true, then you reject the Scripture?
I think it is possible to discern whether or not something is coming from a source that is GOOD and MORAL or not. Someone telling you to burn another human being isn't either.
Commanding that sorcerers be killed was not an immoral act for God.
Here you are faced with only two options if you wish to disagree.
(1) Either discard the Biblical text as fiction or
(2) claim that God sinned and is therefore imperfect.
Now I really don't see any evidence to reasonable conclude either of those options correct.
Really the issue here is crime and punishment, a penal code for an entire nation set up by the governing authority. As I have previously stated, we have the exact same system today. No one finds it insane or horrendous that our government routinely locks people away for their entire lives or even puts them to death in some cases. This strange cognitive dissonance must have some foundation, some piece that people are missing. I think, judging from the posts here that certain premises must be proven in order to make a claim of immorality on the part of God, assuming the text is true.
First, is witchcraft and sorcery a sin against God?
Scripture clearly states a resounding, unequivocal affirmation in Deuteronomy:
“When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you." (Deut. 18:9-12)
Secondly, was the punishment fair and just? If you believe God, then the answer is yes. I don't know any Christians who think that sinning against God is trivial or slight. In fact, the Scripture speaks of just the opposite:
"Do not be deceived; God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction. The one who sows to please God's Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life." (Gal. 6.7-8).
"The soul that sins shall die." (Ez. 18.4)
"The wages of sin is death." (Rom. 6.23)
"Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death."(James 1:15)
The Scripture is clear that sin, which is lawlessness brings with it the consequences of death.
So getting back to ancient Israel and now the nation is becoming a theocracy with God as the government, the authority and now He must hand down all the civil laws to His people. Here, we see He is completely consistent in mirroring his morality from spiritual truths to civil laws. Acts of sin were made into civil laws which carried the penalty worthy of the crime. The crimes in this case were not crimes against a government, but against God! This is not a small or trivial thing, it was an offense of the highest caliber and the punishment was completely fair and justified. Don't forget that the mosaic law required witnesses, judges and multiple fail-safes to protect people from false accusations. Even in the case of stoning, the ones who brought the charges were the ones who cast the stones so that if they were deceivers, the innocent blood would be on their own hands.
All of that being said, this was a theocracy under the Old Covenant and does not apply today. The punishment for adultery and witchcraft and other detestable sins are still in place today, but because of Jesus, God has delayed the punishment until we leave this earth, giving everyone an opportunity to receive the life-giving grace of Christ.
God loves us, and has loved all of us from the very beginning. The immutable character of God's justice works in tandem with His perfect love and goodness to bring those who believe into His presence for all eternity.
I concur that the ancient Hebrews understood God in terms of life and death in their society. But as Christians we look to Jesus and find no instance of Him doing more than taking a whip to moneychangers in the Temple--an indication to me that we are to be spending our time making moral judgments about our religious institutions---and as some will attest, I utilize a good deal of time doing that.
With regard to PEOPLE, Jesus promised FUTURE punishment, not present day. He also said that God reserved judgment of people and nations to Himself. To the extent we begin to make judgments about people and nations as "evil," we are usurping what Jesus said was God's authority.
Now if you want to see an interesting view of the judgment of NATIONS, take a look at Rabbi Jonathan Cahn's new book, The Mystery of the Shemitah. He writes, correctly I might add, every single economic depression in the U.S. has occurred in the year of the Shemitah--right down to the very month. The Shemitah was the seventh year God set aside as a year of rest, debt forgiveness and worship. But Shemitah also means judgment, and God's judgment on nations occurs on the Shemitah.
The answer to be "protected" from God's judgment is the same answer as always--turn to God personally and nationally. Stop worrying about what "others" are doing and spend time making sure YOU, yourself, are right with God. God has given us a guidebook in the Bible--and it is a guidebook that speaks over and over primarily of introspection--not of finger pointing. God does the finger pointing--and whenever I see Him pointing His finger, I also see myself standing in the circle with the others picking up stones. My only hope is that Jesus is nearby and will provide forgiveness and tell me once more to go and sin no more.
Forget about those witches and sorceresses, and spend a little more introspective time.
I use the same source you do . . . but I test the verses with the Spirit of agape love because God IS agape love. Anything that is NOT compatible with agape love is NOT of God or Jesus. You do NOT test the Spirit of anything you believe . . . that is why you follow false doctrine. You seem to have developed a Moderator complex . . . thinking you can order other posters around. What is that all about????
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel O. McClellan
But the notion that the Bible is what God says is itself just the opinions of men. It's something you chose to believe based on what people told you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ_Maxx
It was the unwavering belief of Jesus Christ and that's good enough for me. I don't believe in Jesus because I believe in the Bible, I believe in the Bible because I believe in Jesus.
Nonsense. Jesus only said the scriptures testify about HIM . . . the Living Word of God. He only used them for instruction because they are USEFUL (profitable) . . . and that is all that has ever been claimed for them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
Well, with the thought process you have displayed, I can unwaveringly assure you that Jesus doesn't believe in you, and that's all that will matter on judgment day.
It is a bit of a stretch to call it a thought process, Warden. It is blind dogmatic and unreasoning credulity. Fortunately, Christ saved us all . . . so he will most likely just have to endure some "refining" of the dross. His teachers face a heavier fate.
The Scripture records the events that took place and are not commands on what ought to take place. David did indeed deserve to be killed for his sins under the law, but God had promised to preserve his life. However, David was not released from the consequences of his sin as much of his family reaped the punishments because of David's sin with Bathsheeba and Uriah.
You might forget that the authority we currently live under incarcerates and kills people for crimes they are guilty of. It's interesting that you do not take displeasure in earthly authorities meting out justice, but you reject the perfect justice of the God you claim to love and follow. It is definitely interesting. It is no wonder why people such as yourself must castrate your Bibles so to fit God into your own fictitious doctrines.
...as for me and my house, we will serve The Lord.
God punished OTHERS for the sins of David? And you call that justice? God had some sort of weakness/love of David so he spared him from just punishment and punished others instead? It may be recorded in a story, but I do not believe it. Many stories in the bible are the delusions written down by mere men. Just because someone says all of the bible is true does not make it so.
So you love the witches and bless them abundantly.......while believing they're going to get the hammer from God. Is that correct?
I'm still confused on how you can ID a witch. (I'll confess to not spending any time thinking about witchcraft. Someone would have to hand me a card that said "Wanda the Witch. At Your Service. Have cauldron. Will Travel.) Considering most fundamentalists avoid liberal Christians like they have a communicable disease I find it hard to see any of them mixing it up with someone dabbling in the black arts much less taking the time to show them actual love. What I DO see is fundamentalists taking the time to tell everyone who is going to hell and who isn't. Make sure everyone knows witches are on the list for..... nothing good. Are you also making sure witches are getting their share of all that love and blessings?
Unless you're walking the walk....... pontificating about being all loving and the source of blessings..... falls pretty flat. Really flat. Like 5-days, dead on the highway road-kill flat.
God commanded that adulterers be stoned to death. God is perfectly just and fair. Just because today's society has trivialized sin does not mean God has. It is still worthy of death.
I think it is possible to discern whether or not something is coming from a source that is GOOD and MORAL or not. Someone telling you to burn another human being isn't either.
You would think this would be obvious to anyone and everyone.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
