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The following Wikipedia table summarizes various denominational practices concerning members who are currently in a homosexual relationship: Allowing membership in the denomination
Adventist--No
American Baptist--Varies
Assemblies of God--No
National Baptist Convention---Varies
Southern Baptist Convention--No
Reformed Church in America--Yes
Church of Nazarene--No
Church of England--Yes
Church of Scotland--Yes
Eastern Orthodox--Yes, but denied sacraments
Episcopal--Yes
Mormons--No
Community of Christ--Yes
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America--Yes
German Lutheran and United Churches in Germany---Yes
Mennonite---Varies
United Methodist--Varies
Orthodox Presbyterian--No
Presbyterian Church USA--Yes
Society of Friends--Yes
Roman Catholic Church---Yes, but deny sacraments to practicing homosexuals
Old Catholic--Yes
Traditionalist Catholic--No
Church of Sweden--Yes
United Church of Canada--Yes
United Church of Christ--Yes
(partial list)
The pattern is very interesting. Most churches of other nations have once again left the United States in the dust. Only in America is there strong religious effort to deny church membership, let alone marriage to homosexuals. We are now second economically in the world which leaves the U.S. in the lead in only one category---the mass production of weapons of war. Not a very good testimony for a "Christian" nation.
When God's judgment begins it will begin right here in America. Because we claim being Christian without practicing being Christian.
Wiki is wrong about the Mormon stance. Gays may be members of the Church, but they must be celibate. I guess that would be most similar to the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox stances. There are congregations where celibate gays hold leadership positions. Granted, people may argue that if a LGBT person must remain celibate in order to be a Mormon, it's the same thing as saying they are not allowed to be members. I can understand why someone might say that, but technically, there's a difference.
I look at all the verses about Sodom. You only look at Ezekiel. Are you telling me it is impossible that they were committing multiple sins including homosexuality? It doesn't make logical sense that God would be so mad at this city only because they weren't being nice to the poor and needy when neighboring cities committed far worse atrocities.
The rape argument fails too because God put judgement on this city well before the angels arrived so now you have to prove that raping men was a regular practice in that city. You can't. Also it doesn't fit with Lot offering up his daughters to the men which would essentially be the same sin.
Do you look at these verses as well? Or is your religion confined to hating LGBT people?
Exodus 22:18 Translations
King James Version (KJV)
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. American King James Version (AKJV)
You shall not suffer a witch to live. American Standard Version (ASV)
Thou shalt not suffer a sorceress to live. Basic English Translation (BBE)
Any woman using unnatural powers or secret arts is to be put to death. Webster's Revision
Thou shalt not suffer a sorceress to live. World English Bible
"You shall not allow a sorceress to live.
Based on the above you are sinning by letting witches live. Why aren't you calling for their deaths? Or has that part of your religion "evolved" so that homosexuality is the only thing standing between you and a perfect life?
Do you look at these verses as well? Or is your religion confined to hating LGBT people?
Exodus 22:18 Translations
King James Version (KJV)
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. American King James Version (AKJV)
You shall not suffer a witch to live. American Standard Version (ASV)
Thou shalt not suffer a sorceress to live. Basic English Translation (BBE)
Any woman using unnatural powers or secret arts is to be put to death. Webster's Revision
Thou shalt not suffer a sorceress to live. World English Bible
"You shall not allow a sorceress to live.
Based on the above you are sinning by letting witches live. Why aren't you calling for their deaths? Or has that part of your religion "evolved" so that homosexuality is the only thing standing between you and a perfect life?
I'm sorry, but anyone who uses these arguments doesn't understand the foundations of Christianity. The laws in the OT are Mosaic laws created by God strictly for the Israelites. God chose these people as the lineage from which Christ would come. Therefore, He created very strict laws to keep His people pure and free from sin. Sin is like a cancer, it rots and spreads, and God knew that if sin was allowed, His people would not survive long enough for the coming of Christ. Therefore, strict penalties of death were given to make people afraid of daring to commit sin. Christ's death eliminated the need for the OT law as we are now saved by grace. Otherwise, what do you think Jesus meant when he said He came to fullfill the law?
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
I'm sorry, but anyone who uses these arguments doesn't understand the foundations of Christianity. The laws in the OT are Mosaic laws created by God strictly for the Israelites. God chose these people as the lineage from which Christ would come. Therefore, He created very strict laws to keep His people pure and free from sin. Sin is like a cancer, it rots and spreads, and God knew that if sin was allowed, His people would not survive long enough for the coming of Christ. Therefore, strict penalties of death were given to make people afraid of daring to commit sin. Christ's death eliminated the need for the OT law as we are now saved by grace. Otherwise, what do you think Jesus meant when he said He came to fullfill the law?
Except, of course, if one can find something in the OT which one wants to use to discriminate.
I'm sorry, but anyone who uses these arguments doesn't understand the foundations of Christianity. The laws in the OT are Mosaic laws created by God strictly for the Israelites. God chose these people as the lineage from which Christ would come. Therefore, He created very strict laws to keep His people pure and free from sin. Sin is like a cancer, it rots and spreads, and God knew that if sin was allowed, His people would not survive long enough for the coming of Christ. Therefore, strict penalties of death were given to make people afraid of daring to commit sin. Christ's death eliminated the need for the OT law as we are now saved by grace. Otherwise, what do you think Jesus meant when he said He came to fullfill the law?
If Christ eliminated the need for OT law, why are you throwing out an OT law about homosexuality? That doesn't make any sense at all. Or did your god pick and choose among OT laws like the god of tthttf?
If Christ eliminated the need for OT law, why are you throwing out an OT law about homosexuality? That doesn't make any sense at all. Or did your god pick and choose among OT laws like the god of tthttf?
Because there are moral laws still applicable today within those OT laws. Do you think adultery is still wrong?
Sexual sin including homosexuality is described as being universally destructive here:
Quote:
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. 23 Nor shall you mate with any animal, to defile yourself with it. Nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it. It is perversion.
24 ‘Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you. 25 For the land is defiled; therefore I visit the punishment of its iniquity upon it, and the land vomits out its inhabitants. 26 You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations, either any of your own nation or any stranger who dwells among you 27 (for all these abominations the men of the land have done, who were before you, and thus the land is defiled), 28 lest the land vomit you out also when you defile it, as it vomited out the nations that were before you. 29 For whoever commits any of these abominations, the persons who commit them shall be cut off from among their people.
Lev.18:22-28
Now find me a verse where God equally describes eating shrimp as being so destructive among all nations.
Because there are moral laws still applicable today within those OT laws. Do you think adultery is still wrong?
Sexual sin including homosexuality is described as being universally destructive here:
Lev.18:22-28
Now find me a verse where God equally describes eating shrimp as being so destructive among all nations.
But YOU are the one picking and choosing what moral laws are applicable. And that is a moral travesty.
Either the OT is thrown out and we keep what Jesus said--that the TWO commandments encompass ALL of the Law and Prophets--(1) Love the Lord your God with all your heart and mind, and (2) Love your neighbor as yourself---OR you keep ALL the law recognizing that failure in any law is failure in all.
Your religion doesn't make any philosophical sense and it is inconsistent. A life founded in Christ is NOT inconsistent. It lives by the two commandments that encompass ALL the Law. Your religion needs to find sin. My faith in God needs to the opportunity to live for others. And that is the example in both word and deed that Jesus gave us. And why you have a religion that falsely claims Jesus heads it up. He doesn't.
Why do you think all Jesus' negative comments are to the very religious people--like yourself?
Matt. 15:7-9, "You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, 8 ‘This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far away from Me." 9 ‘But in vain do they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’”
Matt. 7:4, "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye."
Matt. 23:13, "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from men; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in."
Matt. 23:15, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites . . . "
Matt. 23:16-17, "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obligated.’ 17 “You fools and blind men; which is more important, the gold, or the temple that sanctified the gold?"
Matt. 23:23-24, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. 24 “You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!"
Matt. 23:25, "“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!"
Matt. 23:27-28, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. 28 "Even so you too outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness."
Matt. 23:29, “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!"
Matt. 23:33, "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence of hell?"
Mark 12:38-40, "Beware of the scribes who like to walk around in long robes, and like respectful greetings in the market places, 39 and chief seats in the synagogues, and places of honor at banquets, 40 who devour widows’ houses, and for appearance’s sake offer long prayers; these will receive greater condemnation."
Luke 11:40, "You foolish ones, did not He who made the outside make the inside also?"
Luke 11:43-44, "Woe to you Pharisees! For you love the front seats in the synagogues, and the respectful greetings in the market places. 44 “Woe to you! For you are like concealed tombs, and the people who walk over them are unaware of it."
Luke 11:52, "Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge; you did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered."
Luke 12:1, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy."
John 8:44, "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father . . . "
John 8:49, "I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me."
John 8:55, "and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I shall be a liar like you, but I do know Him, and keep His word."
Every time it was RELIGIOUS people who were called vipers and hypocrites and blind guides. Not once did Jesus speak harshly to a homosexual or an adulterer or a tax collector or lepers or Samaritans. Just RELIGIOUS people. Hope you believe this part of the Bible, too, because you are going to be on the receiving end of it on judgment day.
It's clear even from a biological perspective that it is suppose to be a male with a female. No need to argue this issue.
Ultimately who suffers from the broken family unit is the children. It goes far beyond simply homosexuality.. but that obviously is a public demonstration of a depraved state of being.
Sorry two men together is not natural.. neither are two women.. all the parading the streets, holloring, etc.. won't change the weirdness of it all.
and make no mistake it's confusing to the kids too.
But YOU are the one picking and choosing what moral laws are applicable. And that is a moral travesty.
Either the OT is thrown out and we keep what Jesus said--that the TWO commandments encompass ALL of the Law and Prophets--(1) Love the Lord your God with all your heart and mind, and (2) Love your neighbor as yourself---OR you keep ALL the law recognizing that failure in any law is failure in all.
Your religion doesn't make any philosophical sense and it is inconsistent. A life founded in Christ is NOT inconsistent. It lives by the two commandments that encompass ALL the Law. Your religion needs to find sin. My faith in God needs to the opportunity to live for others. And that is the example in both word and deed that Jesus gave us. And why you have a religion that falsely claims Jesus heads it up. He doesn't.
Why do you think all Jesus' negative comments are to the very religious people--like yourself?
Matt. 15:7-9, "You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, 8 ‘This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far away from Me." 9 ‘But in vain do they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’”
Matt. 7:4, "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye."
Matt. 23:13, "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from men; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in."
Matt. 23:15, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites . . . "
Matt. 23:16-17, "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obligated.’ 17 “You fools and blind men; which is more important, the gold, or the temple that sanctified the gold?"
Matt. 23:23-24, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. 24 “You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!"
Matt. 23:25, "“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!"
Matt. 23:27-28, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. 28 "Even so you too outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness."
Matt. 23:29, “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!"
Matt. 23:33, "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence of hell?"
Mark 12:38-40, "Beware of the scribes who like to walk around in long robes, and like respectful greetings in the market places, 39 and chief seats in the synagogues, and places of honor at banquets, 40 who devour widows’ houses, and for appearance’s sake offer long prayers; these will receive greater condemnation."
Luke 11:40, "You foolish ones, did not He who made the outside make the inside also?"
Luke 11:43-44, "Woe to you Pharisees! For you love the front seats in the synagogues, and the respectful greetings in the market places. 44 “Woe to you! For you are like concealed tombs, and the people who walk over them are unaware of it."
Luke 11:52, "Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge; you did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered."
Luke 12:1, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy."
John 8:44, "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father . . . "
John 8:49, "I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me."
John 8:55, "and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I shall be a liar like you, but I do know Him, and keep His word."
Every time it was RELIGIOUS people who were called vipers and hypocrites and blind guides. Not once did Jesus speak harshly to a homosexual or an adulterer or a tax collector or lepers or Samaritans. Just RELIGIOUS people. Hope you believe this part of the Bible, too, because you are going to be on the receiving end of it on judgment day.
Back to your Pharisee rhetoric? Sounds like you only pick this passage and throw the rest of the Bible in the garbage. I pointed out clearly why the law regarding homosexuality is a moral law and you ignored it. You can't be reasoned with. My faith is of the Bible which DOES NOT teach love and acceptance of sin. That appears to be your distorted brand of Christianity.
I look at all the verses about Sodom. You only look at Ezekiel. Are you telling me it is impossible that they were committing multiple sins including homosexuality?
We know they were not practicing homosexuality, because that's not what happened. Judges 19 proves those men were not homosexuals, as does Lot offering up his daughters. I do content that attempted rape was taking place, but that isn't homosexuality.
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It doesn't make logical sense that God would be so mad at this city only because they weren't being nice to the poor and needy when neighboring cities committed far worse atrocities.
It does make sense considering hospitality was a Divine commandment in Judaism and for the Israelites. You're underestimating how important helping strangers was to them.
In ancient Israel, hospitality was not merely a question of good manners, but a moral institution which grew out of the harsh desert and nomadic existence led by the people of Israel.
Rabbinic literature widened the scope of the virtue of hospitality, which it called hakhnasat oreḥim (lit. "bringingin of guests"). It was considered a great mitzvah, an expression of gemilut ḥasadim ("kindness"), especially when it was extended to the poor (Shab. 127a–b; Maim., Yad, Evel 14:1–2). One of the virtues for which one enjoys the fruits in this world and obtains the principal reward in the world to come, hospitality is, according to R. Johanan, even more important than prayer or, according to R. Judah, than receiving the divine presence (Shab. ibid.). A person who extends hospitality to a rabbinic student is regarded as if he had offered a daily sacrifice (Ber. 10b, and see also Ber. 63b; Kid 76b).
Among the ethical teachings of the Rabbis, the duties of hospitality occupy a very prominent position. Some regard hospitality more highly than the reception given to the Shekinah (Divine Presence).
So yes, hospitality was considered extremely important. A great commandment that some regard more highly than prayer and reception of the Divine Presence.
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The rape argument fails too because God put judgement on this city well before the angels arrived so now you have to prove that raping men was a regular practice in that city. You can't. Also it doesn't fit with Lot offering up his daughters to the men which would essentially be the same sin.
Rape does fit the scenario since it's repeated in Judges 19, and Lot offering his daughters was an indication that women being raped was irrelevant to their culture, since women were property.
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