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It seems like the common thing to do on here is to simply state that Christianity is flawed look at what x group did. They committed these acts in the name of God, blah, blah, blah. This type of argument is extremely superficial, lazy, it's flawed and it proves nothing. If we use this type of thinking, we can find groups of individuals from almost any type of belief system, whether it be Muslims, Buddhists, Spiritualists, 5 percenters, Atheists, Agnostic, etc. and find groups or random individuals that have committed acts of atrocities, so does that mean that all of those religions are bad too? I rarely hear that argument for what others belief systems, only for the belief system they disagree with. Bottom line, the argument using people's actions doesn't prove anything. It just creates this false positive that somehow the people who commit these acts are devouts who are following orders when in fact it's quite the opposite.
Even when you consider the Bible and the actions that many have taken. Every action that was taken that was made contrary to the word of God, even by prophets and anointed leaders were met with consequences. Christians were never called to be perfect people, we are expected to strive for perfection. So why do so many use that as an excuse? David was, in my opinion, a perfect illustration of this. Was he perfect? Far, far from it, but every time he committed a wrongful act, he suffered consequences and this was even in spite of him being repentant of his actions. The point wasn't that he was perfect, but that he was growing closer to God and understanding the error in his ways.
It seems like the common thing to do on here is to simply state that Christianity is flawed look at what x group did. They committed these acts in the name of God, blah, blah, blah. This type of argument is extremely superficial, lazy, it's flawed and it proves nothing. If we use this type of thinking, we can find groups of individuals from almost any type of belief system, whether it be Muslims, Buddhists, Spiritualists, 5 percenters, Atheists, Agnostic, etc. and find groups or random individuals that have committed acts of atrocities, so does that mean that all of those religions are bad too? I rarely hear that argument for what others belief systems, only for the belief system they disagree with. Bottom line, the argument using people's actions doesn't prove anything. It just creates this false positive that somehow the people who commit these acts are devouts who are following orders when in fact it's quite the opposite.
Even when you consider the Bible and the actions that many have taken. Every action that was taken that was made contrary to the word of God, even by prophets and anointed leaders were met with consequences. Christians were never called to be perfect people, we are expected to strive for perfection. So why do so many use that as an excuse? David was, in my opinion, a perfect illustration of this. Was he perfect? Far, far from it, but every time he committed a wrongful act, he suffered consequences and this was even in spite of him being repentant of his actions. The point wasn't that he was perfect, but that he was growing closer to God and understanding the error in his ways.
Thoughts?
This is a straw man argument that has little to do with the resistance to fundamentalist beliefs. It is the BELIEFS themselves that are incompatible with the absolute standard of the Spirit of agape love . . . and that convicts them. Every belief in Christianity MUST be tested against the Spirit of agape love because that is what Christ lived, taught and died for . . . agape love. Everyone who denies agape love as the absolute standard of truth for God and Jesus . . . denies God and Jesus in favor of words "written in ink" and stone under the Old Covenant.
I agree, for the most part. It's one of those things that - while it may be factually correct - is seldom relevant to any current discussions.
In certain contexts - and rather limited contexts, at that - the argument has some validity, but as a general condemnation of Christianity, I think it's misplaced. I rarely give it any credence when I come across it, and in fact, when someone who's taking Christianity to task resorts to that argument, I usually find myself automatically regarding the rest of his argument with skepticism, because their reasoning now becomes suspect in my eyes. I mean, if you really think that argument is substantive, I now find myself wondering how sloppily considered your other points may be.
It seems like the common thing to do on here is to simply state that Christianity is flawed look at what x group did. They committed these acts in the name of God, blah, blah, blah. This type of argument is extremely superficial, lazy, it's flawed and it proves nothing. If we use this type of thinking, we can find groups of individuals from almost any type of belief system, whether it be Muslims, Buddhists, Spiritualists, 5 percenters, Atheists, Agnostic, etc. and find groups or random individuals that have committed acts of atrocities, so does that mean that all of those religions are bad too? I rarely hear that argument for what others belief systems, only for the belief system they disagree with. Bottom line, the argument using people's actions doesn't prove anything. It just creates this false positive that somehow the people who commit these acts are devouts who are following orders when in fact it's quite the opposite.
Even when you consider the Bible and the actions that many have taken. Every action that was taken that was made contrary to the word of God, even by prophets and anointed leaders were met with consequences. Christians were never called to be perfect people, we are expected to strive for perfection. So why do so many use that as an excuse? David was, in my opinion, a perfect illustration of this. Was he perfect? Far, far from it, but every time he committed a wrongful act, he suffered consequences and this was even in spite of him being repentant of his actions. The point wasn't that he was perfect, but that he was growing closer to God and understanding the error in his ways.
Thoughts?
One must distinguish between those believers who commit horrid acts and those who commit horrid acts because of their beliefs. The former are simply acts committed by disturbed humans, while the latter are acts by those who believe their religion and/or their God requires them to do it. The former is generally unavoidable because of mental instability, while the latter is completely avoidable via education and reason, though sometimes the two mix.
It seems like the common thing to do on here is to simply state that Christianity is flawed look at what x group did. They committed these acts in the name of God, blah, blah, blah. This type of argument is extremely superficial, lazy, it's flawed and it proves nothing. If we use this type of thinking, we can find groups of individuals from almost any type of belief system, whether it be Muslims, Buddhists, Spiritualists, 5 percenters, Atheists, Agnostic, etc. and find groups or random individuals that have committed acts of atrocities, so does that mean that all of those religions are bad too? I rarely hear that argument for what others belief systems, only for the belief system they disagree with. Bottom line, the argument using people's actions doesn't prove anything. It just creates this false positive that somehow the people who commit these acts are devouts who are following orders when in fact it's quite the opposite.
Even when you consider the Bible and the actions that many have taken. Every action that was taken that was made contrary to the word of God, even by prophets and anointed leaders were met with consequences. Christians were never called to be perfect people, we are expected to strive for perfection. So why do so many use that as an excuse? David was, in my opinion, a perfect illustration of this. Was he perfect? Far, far from it, but every time he committed a wrongful act, he suffered consequences and this was even in spite of him being repentant of his actions. The point wasn't that he was perfect, but that he was growing closer to God and understanding the error in his ways.
Thoughts?
Is there any large group that is not "flawed".
The trick is to understand what we are doing. being held accountable for ones actions is a good teaching for us all. teaching love, compassion, and understanding is good. these things draw in "normal crazy" people because they are good things to try and focus on. "Jesus", I tell my kids, although I don't believe in their god, a human focal point is a ok. It's better than shovel, a truck, or a goat. Speaking of goats, Galileo and Newton where goats. Good at physics, but goat bladders none the less.
But for me the single major flaw is the insistence of Christians to have beliefs that not only go against observations but they go against what Jesus stood for. And I am going to hell for not buying in. following a literal religion is not being "awake". In fact, it tries to close the eyes of its followers. Jesus stood directly against literal religion.
They will claim to know me (they can quote the bible very well indeed) but I will not know them". Because Jesus is not the literal bible. The bible will know the literalist. Just as it knew who eat the apple.
The trick is to understand what we are doing. being held accountable for ones actions is a good teaching for us all. teaching love, compassion, and understanding is good. these things draw in "normal crazy" people because they are good things to try and focus on. "Jesus", I tell my kids, although I don't believe in their god, a human focal point is a ok. It's better than shovel, a truck, or a goat. Speaking of goats, Galileo and Newton where goats. Good at physics, but goat bladders none the less.
But for me the single major flaw is the insistence of Christians to have beliefs that not only go against observations but they go against what Jesus stood for. And I am going to hell for not buying in. following a literal religion is not being "awake". In fact, it tries to close the eyes of its followers. Jesus stood directly against literal religion.
They will claim to know me (they can quote the bible very well indeed) but I will not know them". Because Jesus is not the literal bible. The bible will know the literalist. Just as it knew who eat the apple.
You are making my point. This doesn't necessary mean that Christianity is flawed, it means that these people are incapable of following clear teaching. You even said it yourself, that Jesus taught against those things, so if people actions aren't consistent with the teachings, then who fault is that? Is that the teaching that is flawed or the people?
One must distinguish between those believers who commit horrid acts and those who commit horrid acts because of their beliefs. The former are simply acts committed by disturbed humans, while the latter are acts by those who believe their religion and/or their God requires them to do it. The former is generally unavoidable because of mental instability, while the latter is completely avoidable via education and reason, though sometimes the two mix.
I agree. Education and reason would produce better results and that would bring a greater measure of what a belief system produces, but as humans we are not capable of these things because of our innate nature. That alone is what makes Christianity unique because the idea is we aren't reliant on our own abilities to live a Godly life.
Zealous believers of all RELIGIONS commit acts of atrocities..As MysticPhd stated, individual people are seen in the light of their love. Any written book, in ink or stone is a dangerous guide compared to a personal understanding of God-no matter hat name one calls the deity.
So when one condemns an entire religion, it is very possible there are individuals ho are not of the same brutality. But I would think if one as not in agreement, they would distance themselves.
When the name-it-and-claim-it crowd was popular and Dr.Dobson / Randall Terry started that murderous OPERATION RESCUE, I had to remove myself from the fundamentalist church (many refused to speak out against the OR group and many silently supported their actions by saying foolish things like they shouldn't have been there, they do not need to work there...yada yada yada.) and look for groups that actually respected free-will and recognized that agape love. Which is really bizarre, because the local christian franchised FM-radio station in the Detroit area was all about agape love, but spent so much time condemning the "sinner" and not enough time sitting down for dinner with the outcasts of society.
When the mainstream body witnesses such acts and refuses to address the people carrying them out, no matter what cult they are associated with, they are just as GUILTY.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justtitans
I agree. Education and reason would produce better results and that would bring a greater measure of what a belief system produces, but as humans we are not capable of these things because of our innate nature. That alone is what makes Christianity unique because the idea is we aren't reliant on our own abilities to live a Godly life.
What is free-will but self reliance? We alone determine the direction of our lives. While "God" (by any name) may very well be waiting for us in the here-after, it is OUR decisions that will get us there. Ultimately, it is "god's" decision in the end, but only we as people have the ability to chose right or wrong, bad or worse, or whatever comparative one wants to use--we are active participants based on our "beliefs."
Christianity is the same as any other religion, the minor differences do not make it unique, it just shows there has been alterations in the story that has been handed down from generation to generation and people of different cultures hold fast to certain theological aspects.
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Last edited by zthatzmanz28; 02-18-2015 at 07:27 AM..
What is free-will but self reliance? We alone determine the direction of our lives. While "God" (by any name) may very well be waiting for us in the here-after, it is OUR decisions that will get us there. Ultimately, it is "god's" decision in the end, but only we as people have the ability to chose right or wrong, bad or worse, or whatever comparative one wants to use--we are active participants based on our "beliefs."
Christianity is the same as any other religion, the minor differences do not make it unique, it just shows there has been alterations in the story that has been handed down from generation to generation and people of different cultures hold fast to certain theological aspects.
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Yes and no. Righteousness does not come from our own doing. We are by nature sinful. That is why in order for us to adopt a righteous nature, we have to accept the Holy Spirit and allow it to be a guidance for us. If we do not have the heart to accept Christ into our lives then we will not be able to accept the Holy Spirit and we will not see the evidence of righteousness in our lives. That is the choice that we make, but what we do that is good is not a result of what we do. As we saw with the Israelites in the Old Testament, you could make up all the rules, you wanted, they still chose to do wrong things. That is because they did not have the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the teachings of Christ to lead them on the right path.
Christianity is are always looking for flaws in everyone, and everything but themselves. It is the faith of OR ELSE.
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