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What did Jesus say was absolutely essential to become a Christian? He said, "You MUST be born again". If you are not born again you can not be a Christian. Since "Regeneration" is not something we can do for ourselves but is in fact an act done for us by God out of His own choice and will; then the question of what we must believe in order to be a Christian becomes somewhat moote.
Well, the view that you are attributing to Anslem\Calvin is no such thing at all. AS Mike so accurately posted it is the biblical truth of the matter. I really wish that those who desire to make up their own beliefs about Christrianity would call themselves something else because "Christian" they are not.
Y
Your ignorance of theological history is duly noted and the companion attitude of self-righteousness deplored.
Mike gave some pretty good explanations of it. Are you able to refute his posts? Or is that still your answer?
The point being made here, Vizio, is that those passages serve equally well to support other interpretations of how atonement works, and the history of the various theories should give anyone pause who claims to have "THE BIBLICAL ANSWER."
In the sacrificial system set up under Moses there as NOTHING substitutionary in the sacrifice. The animal as said to BE SIN and the sin was destroyed or sent far away as in the case of the scapegoat. The SIN was put upon the animal so that the people could function for another year. Of course, the blood of bulls and goats could NOT permanently get rid of sin....that is what Christ did....SIN (not sins plural but sin itself) was laid upon Christ and then he took it to Hades and it did not come back with him when he rose. The atonement was FOR us, Christ was the propitiation God gave TO us so we would know that He wasn't ANGRY with us. As scripture says, God was IN Christ reconciling the world TO him. Christ was not a substitute victim to take the wrath of God INSTEAD of us. He became SIN for us and sin was destroyed when he died (figuratively, of course, we still sin as long as we are in these mortal bodies). That is what God hates........sin. For God so LOVED the world (while we were YET sinners Jesus died FOR us...to reveal this great love the Father has for us) He sent his son.......Jesus is the LAMB who TAKETH AWAY SIN. His whole incarnation was in a sense death for Jesus for he had to leave the bosom of the Father and dwell among sinful humanity. Moses was a type of Christ. He left the good life of the Egyptian pharaohs and identified himself with the slave race. No actual ransom was paid but he was the instrument God used to free them from slavery. And we are slaves to sin, physically till we get the purchased new body, but free now from the burden of feeling guilty for they are not being held against us any longer. We are to tell the world to turn to God BECAUSE he has redeemed us. Yet the church repeatedly tells the world that God WILL forgive them IF they do this, that, the other. It is always God who is the prime mover and has a heart for the work of His hands.
yes, there are great rewards in store for those who turn to God in faith and not by sight, and weeping and gnashing of teeth for those who refuse to see what God has done for them through Jesus. But weeping is only for a night (or a thousand years or maybe longer, but not in the form of burning agony, God is not a cruel, sadist) and the morning ill come when in joy we can all sing His praises for He will be all in all.
No, the lamb on the alter did not take the place of the victim but the priest in a figurative sense transferred the sins of the people to the animal and then the animal was killed, burned, sent away into the wilderness. There were very few sins punishable by death yet ALL the sins were taken away in the death of the animal
The point being made here, Vizio, is that those passages serve equally well to support other interpretations of how atonement works, and the history of the various theories should give anyone pause who claims to have "THE BIBLICAL ANSWER."
(That is if good sense doesn't do the job)
The problem, of course, is that all of those theories are kind of mutually exclusive. It's not logical for all 5 to be correct.
Y
Your ignorance of theological history is duly noted and the companion attitude of self-righteousness deplored.
Regardless of the "Theological history" I know full well what the bible PLAINLY teaches. As for "self righteousness", I have none. As a son of Adam I am totally depraved and sin touches me at all of my points. Every word, thought and deed I have ever had or done is tainted by the sin that is a result of the Adamic nature I was born with. Praise be to God that He sees this body of corruption as righteous, not because of anything I have done or can do but for Christ's sake alone.
Have you been to Jesus for the cleansing power?
Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?
Are you fully trusting in His grace this hour?
Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?
Refrain
Are you washed in the blood,
In the soul cleansing blood of the Lamb?
Are your garments spotless? Are they white as snow?
Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?
Are you walking daily by the Savior’s side?
Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?
Do you rest each moment in the Crucified?
Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?
Refrain
When the Bridegroom cometh will your robes be white?
Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?
Will your soul be ready for the mansions bright,
And be washed in the blood of the Lamb?
Refrain
Lay aside the garments that are stained with sin,
And be washed in the blood of the Lamb;
There’s a fountain flowing for the soul unclean,
O be washed in the blood of the Lamb!
In the sacrificial system set up under Moses there as NOTHING substitutionary in the sacrifice. The animal as said to BE SIN and the sin was destroyed or sent far away as in the case of the scapegoat. The SIN was put upon the animal so that the people could function for another year. Of course, the blood of bulls and goats could NOT permanently get rid of sin....that is what Christ did....SIN (not sins plural but sin itself) was laid upon Christ and then he took it to Hades and it did not come back with him when he rose. The atonement was FOR us, Christ was the propitiation God gave TO us so we would know that He wasn't ANGRY with us. As scripture says, God was IN Christ reconciling the world TO him. Christ was not a substitute victim to take the wrath of God INSTEAD of us. He became SIN for us and sin was destroyed when he died (figuratively, of course, we still sin as long as we are in these mortal bodies). That is what God hates........sin. For God so LOVED the world (while we were YET sinners Jesus died FOR us...to reveal this great love the Father has for us) He sent his son.......Jesus is the LAMB who TAKETH AWAY SIN. His whole incarnation was in a sense death for Jesus for he had to leave the bosom of the Father and dwell among sinful humanity. Moses was a type of Christ. He left the good life of the Egyptian pharaohs and identified himself with the slave race. No actual ransom was paid but he was the instrument God used to free them from slavery. And we are slaves to sin, physically till we get the purchased new body, but free now from the burden of feeling guilty for they are not being held against us any longer. We are to tell the world to turn to God BECAUSE he has redeemed us. Yet the church repeatedly tells the world that God WILL forgive them IF they do this, that, the other. It is always God who is the prime mover and has a heart for the work of His hands.
yes, there are great rewards in store for those who turn to God in faith and not by sight, and weeping and gnashing of teeth for those who refuse to see what God has done for them through Jesus. But weeping is only for a night (or a thousand years or maybe longer, but not in the form of burning agony, God is not a cruel, sadist) and the morning ill come when in joy we can all sing His praises for He will be all in all.
No, the lamb on the alter did not take the place of the victim but the priest in a figurative sense transferred the sins of the people to the animal and then the animal was killed, burned, sent away into the wilderness. There were very few sins punishable by death yet ALL the sins were taken away in the death of the animal
The various animal sacrifices of the Levitical sacrificial system very much represented the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ on the cross. The animal sacrifices were representative analogies of Christ's sacrifice. Without going into a lot of detail, there were the daily offerings which consisted of the burnt offerings, the grain offerings, the peace offerings, the sin offerings, and the guilt offerings (Lev. chapters 1-6), as well as the special feast offerings on holy days as well as at the time of the new moon. All of these offerings prefigured the work of Christ on the cross (Heb. chapter 10).
Take the burnt offering for example.
Lev. 1:1 Then the LORD called to Moses and spoke to him from the tent of meeting, saying, 2] "Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, 'When any man of you brings an offering to the LORD, you shall bring your offering of animals from the herd or the flock. 3] 'If his offering is a burnt offering from the herd, he shall offer it, a male without defect; he shall offer it at the doorway of the tent of meeting, that he may be accepted before the LORD. 4] 'He shall lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, that it may be accepted for him to make atonement on his behalf.
The animal had to be a male without defect. This represented the perfection of Jesus Christ. When the believer placed his hand on the head of the animal this represented the transfer of his sins to the coming Messiah. With the placement of his hands on the head of the animal his sins were now identified with the animal who was to be killed in the same way as Jesus was made sin for us.
2 Cor. 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
1 Pet. 2:24 and He Himself bore our sins (ἁμαρτίαις - hamartiais; Plural) in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
The animal was sacrificed in the sinner's place as a type or picture of the perfect sacrifice of Christ on the cross (Heb. chapter 10).
The animal being accepted for [in place of] the person 'to make atonement on his behalf' [Lev. 1:4] is substitution.
The problem, of course, is that all of those theories are kind of mutually exclusive. It's not logical for all 5 to be correct.
So we should choose one horrid but scripturally supportable one?
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