Once Saved Always saved, Is this a hyper grace doctrine? (testimony, disciples)
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You eally do not understand the universalist view, Finn. The problem comes from equating salvation from eternal separation from God with no consequences. As even Mike555 will tell you . . . we all will have eternal life. What differs is what it will be like for us. We will reap whatever we sow and have not repented of . . . no more and no less. Mike believes there is magic in claiming to believe ABOUT Jesus whatever he thinks we are supposed to believe. The only magic would be in how it affects us. If it makes us love God and each other every day and repent when we don't . . . then it will make a difference . . . BUT NOT about our salvation. We have NOTHING whatsoever to do with our salvation.
I didn't intend to post anything further on this thread and haven't kept tract of what's been posted. But I noticed this post which makes a reply necessary.
You are taking what I said out of context. I did not say that we will all have eternal life. I said that everyone lives forever. The difference between that and eternal life is that eternal life has to do with life in the presence of God in a saving relationship. And only those people who have received Christ as Savior have that relationship. Those people who die never having received Christ as Savior will have everlasting existence in the lake of fire apart from any saving relationship with God.
And no, I do not believe there is 'magic' in 'claiming' to believe about Jesus. No one is saved apart from accepting as true the proposition that Jesus bore our sins in His body on the cross and paid the penalty for them. The writers of Scripture state over and over again that one must believe on Christ in order to be saved. Jesus said it Himself.
John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26] and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
John 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
If you don't believe that Jesus paid the penalty for your sins, then you remain under condemnation and are on your way to 'hell.'
For starters, I don't think that's what He'll ask them at all. I don't think there is such a thing as "enough works." At any rate, here's what Matthew 25:32-45 says about it:
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
A Another excellent post. This is one of my favorite passages in the New Testament.
I've got to disagree with you. I think you're making a distinction where you really have no reason to. To me, any time we do good for an unselfish reason, we are doing a "good deed" or "works of righteousness." Jesus gave so many examples of how we are to serve our fellow human beings. I don't think it's as important to Him that we necessarily "hide" them as that we do not do them for show. He wants our obedience to Him to be out of love and done with the purpose of glorifying our Father in Heaven. I'm sorry, but I simply cannot understand how anyone could disagree with such a clear teaching. Obviously, though, people have their own way of interpreting His words.
Kathryn, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Our natural "good deeds", as Isaiah said are bur filthy rags in the sight of God. The ones that give glory to our heavenly Father are the deeds however small they my be that are done though the works of the Holy Spirit within us that are accepted by Him.
You really do not understand the universalist view, Finn. The problem comes from equating salvation from eternal separation from God with no consequences. As even Mike555 will tell you . . . we all will have eternal life. What differs is what it will be like for us. We will reap whatever we sow and have not repented of . . . no more and no less. Mike believes there is magic in claiming to believe ABOUT Jesus whatever he thinks we are supposed to believe. The only magic would be in how it affects us. If it makes us love God and each other every day and repent when we don't . . . then it will make a difference . . . BUT NOT about our salvation. We have NOTHING whatsoever to do with our salvation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
Yes, I do, and I also understand you are trying to take the thread off topic. This is not about universalism.
Come on, Finn . . . how can a thread on OSAS possibly be taken off topic by Universalism which essentially says the same thing . . . except it leaves out the need for US to DO anything to save ourselves because Christ did it for us? It is Finished. THAT is the Good News and we just need to have FAITH it is true so we will stop worrying about it. We can focus on what is really important . . . loving God and each other every day and repenting when we don't.
Come on, Finn . . . how can a thread on OSAS possibly be taken off topic by Universalism which essentially says the same thing . . . except it leaves out the need for US to DO anything to save ourselves because Christ did it for us? It is Finished. THAT is the Good News and we just need to have FAITH it is true so we will stop worrying about it. We can focus on what is really important . . . loving God and each other every day and repenting when we don't.
ok, so you are a firm believer in OSAS then. Got it.
I didn't intend to post anything further on this thread and haven't kept tract of what's been posted. But I noticed this post which makes a reply necessary.
You are taking what I said out of context. I did not say that we will all have eternal life. I said that everyone lives forever. The difference between that and eternal life is that eternal life has to do with life in the presence of God in a saving relationship. And only those people who have received Christ as Savior have that relationship. Those people who die never having received Christ as Savior will have everlasting existence in the lake of fire apart from any saving relationship with God.
And no, I do not believe there is 'magic' in 'claiming' to believe about Jesus. No one is saved apart from accepting as true the proposition that Jesus bore our sins in His body on the cross and paid the penalty for them. The writers of Scripture state over and over again that one must believe on Christ in order to be saved. Jesus said it Himself.
John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26] and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
John 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
If you don't believe that Jesus paid the penalty for your sins, then you remain under condemnation and are on your way to 'hell.'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
No matter what you believe or think to be true.
You are still going to die, believe you this?
With the exception of the rapture generation every Christian will experience physical death. But no Christian will ever die the second death which is banishment to the lake of fire. Everyone who has received Jesus Christ as Savior has eternal life right now. At the point of physical death, the soul and spirit of the believer departs the body and goes into the presence of the Lord in heaven.
No matter what you believe or think to be true.
You are still going to die, believe you this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
With the exception of the rapture generation every Christian will experience physical death. But no Christian will ever die the second death which is banishment to the lake of fire. Everyone who has received Jesus Christ as Savior has eternal life right now. At the point of physical death, the soul and spirit of the believer departs the body and goes into the presence of the Lord in heaven.
If the soul does not die, there is no resurrection.
Of course, you can always teach another Gospel?
Resurrection refers to the body. Not the soul.
At the resurrection the soul simply rejoins the resurrected body.
The immortal soul ideology is fallacious.
But you can believe otherwise.
Nowhere, does the Bible say that part of mankind (Adam) was immortal.
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