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Why do you believe this? Are people really looking to be changed or loved? There's a difference. And if they do want to be changed, what do you think is motivating it, fear or love? Again, there's a huge difference. I don't see how someone who is in a loving relationship, who is secure in his/her relationship with God, and who is accepted and embraced by his/her faith community would feel the need to change sexual orientations any more than a heterosexual would feel the need to do so.
This sounds very personal and specific to your own needs and conflicts. Is this ministry really about you and mainly an outlet for you? Are you the one who is really looking for someone to talk to? Do you still feel alone? Do you feel misunderstood and not fully accepted in your faith community? Are you looking for someone to reach out to who is just like you or who you could try to persuade to live the life you have chosen to live?
Don't you think you are being just a little disingenuous here? You might not be able to force anything on anyone, but you clearly have given an ultimatum if those who you talk with do not conform to your beliefs and way of life. Here's your direct quote:
"I believe that true repentance is important and necessary to move forward in life. This ministry will not accept being gay and Christian as a truth. Men are more than welcome to come into the ministry with that mindset, but to know that we are here to help dispel any misconceptions they have about the Bible and what Jesus taught. If after a period of time a man chooses to continue to believe being gay and Christian is okay, he would not be able to be a part of the ministry...."
Have you really embraced who you truly are or have you embraced what others have taught you to believe? If you believe in your heart that gay men and women need to change their sexual orientation then you intrinsically believe that being heterosexual is superior and being homosexual is inferior and that gay people are not fully or equally worthy of God's grace.
Again this sounds very personal. You made the choice to turn away from God and your faith in him. If you are seeking to reach people at church then that would suggest those men are not quite like you. They are seeking to remain in communion with God. Also, if you ultimately felt love by God versus fear of eternal hell, why do you feel the need to live as a heterosexual?
So this answers my last question, your relationship with God appears to be based more on fear as a literal interpretation of scripture would certainly lead one down this path. However, do you really think you are on the side of Jesus and his teachings? He was ridiculed, maligned and considered an apostate by the literalists of his time. He was in the minority. His views and teachings were considered unconventional and not of sound doctrine. I think this fact is profound, often overlooked, and very instructive.
Have you considered that others have walked away from shame, guilt, and self hatred and into acceptance and freedom thru the strength of God?
Excellent post! As someone who is spiritual but raised by Bible literalist evangelicals, I completely abandoned any church or formal religion. But we've recently found a very accepting, open church (Presbyterian) that focuses on love and service, not on literal interpretation of certain verses. I know I'm never going to "convert" and refuse to live in shame or self hatred, knowing I didn't choose to be gay. There are many churches out there like this, but the literalists seem to have the louder voice in this country. Maybe because they feel so compelled to convince everyone else that theirs is the only right way.
Thanks Alpha! Yeah I do expect this resistance. I appreciate what TheRealAngelion said, and it's evident he is happy with who he is and where he is at in life. If someone disagrees with me, then, well, it's okay. I'm not expecting to be everyone's friend, but I do know there are many men out there who do want to talk, who do need someone to turn to. I listened to one such guy last night. He's seeking God and really trying to make this change in his life, not out of fear, but because he knows the truth and wants to live by that truth.
He made such an amazing comment and something I had long forgotten, but quickly identified with when he said it. Many, if not all of the people he interacted with on a regular basis were simply empty. There was no substance to those people. They were all there trying to fill themselves up with one another, and two empty people can only use one another, and not fill others up. This comment might meet with some anger on others part, but I do remember this feeling. It was a powerful feeling that I now remember vividly. I believe it has to do with someone who has given their life to the Lord, knows the truth and is seeing what it is like to not have Christ. The emptiness in life is due to the need for Jesus in your life.
Well, I'm not "empty" and my relationship is happy and fulfilling. If all your relationships feel empty, maybe it would help to find out why that is through therapy. There are people out there, straight and gay, who have problems maintaining romantic relationships. If you were straight and went from woman to woman without ever forming a bond or a healthy relationship, would you consider "converting" to gay to see if that would work, even though you weren't attracted to men? No, you would seek help and find out why you were incapable of maintaining a relationship with a woman.
One of the spiritual lessons we were put on this earth to learn, is to learn how not to judge others, but to keep the focus instead on our own self, on our own path. We are all in varvious places on our path in learning that. To me it is a sign of spiritual maturity how accepting one is of another's spiritual beliefs. Also how much i focus on myself and let others do the same. Really it is none of my business! No one can know what is between another person and their creator, that is between them and god, and no one else. (Unless you assume to know better than God!)
When we outgrow the need to judge others....we move into a more mature balanced peaceful way of living and expressing our own divinity. When there is more peace in our hearts, then that peace moves out into the world and every life we touch.
Well, I'm not "empty" and my relationship is happy and fulfilling. If all your relationships feel empty, maybe it would help to find out why that is through therapy. There are people out there, straight and gay, who have problems maintaining romantic relationships. If you were straight and went from woman to woman without ever forming a bond or a healthy relationship, would you consider "converting" to gay to see if that would work, even though you weren't attracted to men? No, you would seek help and find out why you were incapable of maintaining a relationship with a woman.
Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
Sorry, felt the need to step back in. Regardless of whether one feels fulfilled with what they're doing, this doesn't negate the fact that it is deemed sinful by God. What Hoosier is doing is a great thing, and he's trying to assist those whom have sufferred from the same sinful lifestyle that God brought him out of. If you want to discuss whether or not you think homosexuality is sinful or not, create another thread. But I don't think that that is his intent of this one. God bless.
DimSumRaja: One of the spiritual lessons we were put on this earth to learn, is to learn how not to judge others, but to keep the focus instead on our own self, on our own path.
From what I gather about Hoosier's mission, it would only be for people who want to be there. And so, if our own path would take us to Hoosier's mission, I think you would agree that there is no point in condemning those that do.
Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
Sorry, felt the need to step back in. Regardless of whether one feels fulfilled with what they're doing, this doesn't negate the fact that it is deemed sinful by God. What Hoosier is doing is a great thing, and he's trying to assist those whom have sufferred from the same sinful lifestyle that God brought him out of. If you want to discuss whether or not you think homosexuality is sinful or not, create another thread. But I don't think that that is his intent of this one. God bless.
I assume you follow the rest of Leviticus to the letter then?
"For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him." Leviticus 20:09
"If a man lies with a woman during her sickness and uncovers her nakedness, he has discovered her flow, and she has uncovered the flow of her blood. Both of them shall be cut off from her people." Leviticus 20:18
"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property." Leviticus 25: 44-45
"Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard." Leviticus 19:27
[SIZE=-1]"...do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear material woven of two kinds of material." [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Leviticus [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]19:19[/SIZE]
"They (shellfish) shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, but you shall regard their carcasses as an abomination[SIZE=-1]." Leviticus 11:11[/SIZE]
I assume you follow the rest of Leviticus to the letter then?
"For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him." Leviticus 20:09
"If a man lies with a woman during her sickness and uncovers her nakedness, he has discovered her flow, and she has uncovered the flow of her blood. Both of them shall be cut off from her people." Leviticus 20:18
"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property." Leviticus 25: 44-45
"Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard." Leviticus 19:27
[SIZE=-1]"...do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear material woven of two kinds of material." [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Leviticus [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]19:19[/SIZE]
"They (shellfish) shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, but you shall regard their carcasses as an abomination[SIZE=-1]." Leviticus 11:11[/SIZE]
LOL, certainly not. This is another one of those cases where some christians SAY they follow the bible literally pick and choose what they WANT too follow.
Last edited by Lindsey_Mcfarren; 01-18-2008 at 10:03 AM..
LOL, certainly not. This is another one of those cases where the christians who SAY they follow the bible literally pick and choose what they WANT too follow.
I assume you follow the rest of Leviticus to the letter then?
"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property." Leviticus 25: 44-45
"Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard." Leviticus 19:27
".. Do not wear material woven of two kinds of material." Leviticus 19:19
"They (shellfish) shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, Leviticus 11:11
LOL I love this list! So a clean cut gentleman wearing a cotton-polyester blend shirt, who just had the shrimp scallop platter at LongJohnSilver's is reallllllllllly in serious trouble! Thanks Denverian this puts things in perspective. I like keeping in mind that the literal bible = slavery is OK.
Well to be honest it would be difficult to pick out a name for the ministry without knowing the point of the ministry. I think Hoosier has kept that a little vague.
Is the point to show men who are gay that they are loved and cherished as gay men or is it to show them the way to NOT be gay anymore?
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