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Interestingly enough, that's what the Book of Mormon teaches, too:
"For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father." (Mosiah 3:19)
The difference, of course, is that the above text seems to indicate that it's up to us to submit. The Bible says that God changes the heart, though. It's God that draws us to him. It's God that fully saves us. Maybe you don't see the difference...I think there is a distinction to look at there.
Philippians 1:29, "For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake."
2 Timothy 2:25, "with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth."
We are saved by grace through faith -- not by works.
On the other hand, the Book of Mormon says differently. 2 Nephi 25:23 states that it's faith, as long as you've done all you can:
"For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."
Quote:
It is a wonderful and glorious thing. But even that is not all we can hope for.
I've got one question for you, Vizio. You say that "we who do not seek God and hate God are saved by Him." That doesn't sound like what I've been listening to you say all these years you've been posting. I thought you believed that only those who love God will be saved by Him. Now you're saying that those who hate Him will also be saved? Or am I misunderstanding you?
By nature, we are born sinners. Everyone -- we are all at war with God. We are children of wrath. God does save some, and he regenerates us so that we can trust him.
1 Cor 2:14 states "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
In the context, Paul was talking about how some people in the Corinthian church were acting like pagans. They were not actually Christians, and were still non-Christians, acting like non-Christians do.
"Saved from wrath" is specifically what Peggy is denying. The idea of a scapegoat is in every way abhorrent, but especially from the idea that responsibility for our shortcomings can be transferred to an innocent person, and the idea that God's punishment can be for the sole purpose of vengeance. There are other interpretations of how "atonement" works, and "propitiation" is a translation for a Greek term that may not have exactly the meaning you believe, even if we are to accept the perceptions of the person who used it.
I'd venture to say that "from good to better" is specifically a denial of the perception that man is basically bad, as opposed to having selfish impulses, sort of like those who "do by nature the things of the law" that Paul mentioned.
My God already saved me and he is not violent or full of wrath.
You're taking it to the extreme, to serve your purpose. Nevertheless, Scripture is clear we are saved from God's wrath. How do you deal with Romans 5:9?
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!
I'd venture to say that "from good to better" is specifically a denial of the perception that man is basically bad, as opposed to having selfish impulses, sort of like those who "do by nature the things of the law" that Paul mentioned.
Do you agree with Peggy? Do we go from good to better?
"Saved from wrath" is specifically what Peggy is denying. The idea of a scapegoat is in every way abhorrent, but especially from the idea that responsibility for our shortcomings can be transferred to an innocent person, and the idea that God's punishment can be for the sole purpose of vengeance. There are other interpretations of how "atonement" works, and "propitiation" is a translation for a Greek term that may not have exactly the meaning you believe, even if we are to accept the perceptions of the person who used it.
I'd venture to say that "from good to better" is specifically a denial of the perception that man is basically bad, as opposed to having selfish impulses, sort of like those who "do by nature the things of the law" that Paul mentioned.
I would suggest you ought to sit down and read the first 10 chapters of Romans -- if not the whole book. Chapters 1-5 hammer on this topic hard.
Do you agree with Peggy? Do we go from good to better?
Well, SOME of us do.
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