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Of course Jesus promised the Holy Spirit as a guide. No one has ever said otherwise. That is simply a false accusation on the part of some. - John 16:7-15
He also promised to preserve His Word. They are not mutually exclusive things. But the Holy Spirit works with the Scriptures and never leads anyone to believe anything contrary to the Scriptures. And how do we know that Jesus promised the Holy Spirit as a guide? Because His promise to do so is preserved in His written Word.
Mark 13:31 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
Rev. 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19] and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
Jesus said many things which have not been preserved in writing and so we don't know what those things were. But of the things He said that we do know, including those things He revealed to John in the Book of Revelation, we know because they were preserved in writing.
Hmmm. if God promised to preserve His word (bible according to fundies) then don't you think He would have done a better job of it. After all no two bibles read the same.
And lastly, the Qumran discoveries forever squashed the idea that we have close to the same documents that were original. They are older than the Septuagint version of scripture translated into English and our version of Jeremiah is one seventh longer than the older Minority Text document. A few things were cut out from the older version, such as failed prophecies, and quite a bit of new material was inserted. And the texts align very differently from one another. If the older text is closer to the "original," then why aren't fundamentalists crying to have it included in their Bibles. I think I have the answer----they are more comfortable with what they have been taught than they are interested in learning about the "originals." The whole "originals" concept is a specious attempt to look smarter than a cardboard box. WE DON"T HAVE THE ORIGINALS, so appealing to them is fruitless. YOU ARE THE ONE TELLING US WHAT THE ORIGINALS SAID--and your making it sound like the flawed English bible we have.
They also show that Isaiah is 4 or 5 % shorter then the Mazorite texts.
And you are correct the fundies should all be up in arms complaining about how the Mazorites texts have added to their bibles these extended versions of Jer and Isaiah, but alas we here no such cry. Propably because most of christianity follows the Mazorite text and have been indoctrinated to believe that that text is the inerrent, God breathed, word of God.
Of course Jesus promised the Holy Spirit as a guide. No one has ever said otherwise. That is simply a false accusation on the part of some. - John 16:7-15
He also promised to preserve His Word. They are not mutually exclusive things. But the Holy Spirit works with the Scriptures and never leads anyone to believe anything contrary to the Scriptures. And how do we know that Jesus promised the Holy Spirit as a guide? Because His promise to do so is preserved in His written Word.
Mark 13:31 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
Rev. 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19] and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
Jesus said many things which have not been preserved in writing and so we don't know what those things were. But of the things He said that we do know, including those things He revealed to John in the Book of Revelation, we know because they were preserved in writing.
So only SOME of Jesus' words will not pass away? One more time: The Word and the Bible are not the same thing and presenting them as such t support your doctrine is at best misleading. The instrument chosen to preserve the Word, or the Plan, or the Way Jesus taught was the Spirit. Have you ever wondered what Jesus must think that you don"t trust His instrument to do the job assigned?
And here it is again, the same tired non sequitur. Show me somewhere that God promised to preserve any writings
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
Quote:
and I will show you in the writings you say you value so highly where Jesus promised a different guide....wait, I already have, many times, but the same tired excuse keeps coming out without any justification whatsoever
You are going to quote a book which you do not trust. Interesting. The 'different guide' aka the Holy Spirit never contradicts the written word of God, because IT IS the word of God. I know you'll deny it, but the written word of God and living word of God go hand in hand.
God gave us both, the written and the living Word. You act as if you have to choose one or the other. Choose both, and use them together.
If you argue the Bible cannot be trusted, please provide some examples where the Spirit told you something this directly contradicts words of Jesus written in the Bible.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 03-22-2015 at 09:30 AM..
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
You are going to quote a book which you do not trust. Interesting. The 'different guide' aka the Holy Spirit never contradicts the written word of God, because IT IS the word of God. I know you'll deny it, but the written word of God and living word of God go hand in hand.
God gave us both, the written and the living Word. You act as if you have to choose one or the other. Choose both, and use them together.
If you arguer the Bible cannot be trusted, please provide some examples where the Spirit told you something this directly contradicts words of Jesus written in the Bible.
The difference, Finn, is that God inspired men to write their own experience and much of that has been put together in a book which was more "given" to us by what was developing into the Catholic Church. The point HERE is that you have given it the authority that belongs to the Spirit and restricted the operation of the Spirit to what is in the book.
Use both is excellent advice, Finn, but start with the Spirit and validate or modify the book according to the fruit that can be determined, and then it is a wonderful tool FOR the Spirit.
Don't usurp what the book you claim to follow tells us Jesus established.
The difference, Finn, is that God inspired men to write their own experience and much of that has been put together in a book which was more "given" to us by what was developing into the Catholic Church. The point HERE is that you have given it the authority that belongs to the Spirit and restricted the operation of the Spirit to what is in the book.
Use both is excellent advice, Finn, but start with the Spirit and validate or modify the book according to the fruit that can be determined, and then it is a wonderful tool FOR the Spirit.
Don't usurp what the book you claim to follow tells us Jesus established.
Modify it?
Gods words will never pass away. Your modifications are your own words.
Please provide some examples where the Spirit told you something this directly contradicts words of Jesus written in the Bible.
Gods words will never pass away. Your modifications are your own words.
Please provide some examples where the Spirit told you something this directly contradicts words of Jesus written in the Bible.
Finn I have shown you countless times where Jesus corrected man view of the law. We are to follow His example, and expose those things man has added to the scriptures and called scripture.
as to your comment God word will never pass away, well what about the laws concerning sacrifice did they not pass away? What about all the things Jesus said that passed away, you know all those things Jesus spoke that if written down in book the world would not be able to contain them. Were did those words go?
Excellent! So, what you have is what one writer says about what he has written in one place, and you will note that what he received was a vision, which he then described from his viewpoint: "I saw....." Doesn't sound like he was given the words to write, does it?
Now let's look at what another writer said about what he was writing in another place: 1 Cor 7:25 "25Now concerning virgins I have no command of the Lord, but I give an opinion as one who by the mercy of the Lord is trustworthy." Here, Paul specifically states that the words written were NOT from inspiration of the plenary or any other direct kind.
Where is the "verbal inspiration" idea now?
There are prophets in the Old Testament who God told them to sit down and write
Exo_17:14 Then Yahweh said to Moses: Write this as a reminder in a scroll, and put it in the ears of Joshua that I shall wipe out, yea wipe out the remembrance of Amalek from under the heavens.
Exo_34:1 Yahweh said to Moses: Carve for yourself two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on the tablets the words which came to be on the first tablets which you broke.
Exo_34:27 Yahweh said to Moses: Write for yourself these words, for at the bidding of these words I contract with you a covenant and with Israel.
Deu_31:19 And now, write down for yourselves this song and teach it to the sons of Israel. Put it in their mouths so that this song may come to be for Me as a testimony against the sons of Israel.
Isa_8:1 And Yahweh is saying to me, "Take your large new roll, and write on it with the stylus of a mortal:To hasten-loot-hurry-plunder."
Jer_30:2 `Thus spoke Yahweh, Elohim of Israel, saying, Write for you all the words that I have spoken unto you on a book."
Jer_36:28 `Turn, take to you another roll, and write on it all the former words that were on the first roll, that Jehoiakim king of Judah burnt,
Hab_2:2 And Yahweh is answering me and saying, Write the vision, and publish it on tablets, that he may run who is reading it."
There are prophets in the Old Testament who God told them to sit down and write
Exo_17:14 Then Yahweh said to Moses: Write this as a reminder in a scroll, and put it in the ears of Joshua that I shall wipe out, yea wipe out the remembrance of Amalek from under the heavens.
Exo_34:1 Yahweh said to Moses: Carve for yourself two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on the tablets the words which came to be on the first tablets which you broke.
Exo_34:27 Yahweh said to Moses: Write for yourself these words, for at the bidding of these words I contract with you a covenant and with Israel.
Deu_31:19 And now, write down for yourselves this song and teach it to the sons of Israel. Put it in their mouths so that this song may come to be for Me as a testimony against the sons of Israel.
Isa_8:1 And Yahweh is saying to me, "Take your large new roll, and write on it with the stylus of a mortal:To hasten-loot-hurry-plunder."
Jer_30:2 `Thus spoke Yahweh, Elohim of Israel, saying, Write for you all the words that I have spoken unto you on a book."
Jer_36:28 `Turn, take to you another roll, and write on it all the former words that were on the first roll, that Jehoiakim king of Judah burnt,
Hab_2:2 And Yahweh is answering me and saying, Write the vision, and publish it on tablets, that he may run who is reading it."
God breathed? Yep. Inspired? You betcha.
With Jeremiah you should clarify---God wanted to add words (apparently He didn't get it right the first time), and second, He told Jeremiah to drop it in the ocean. But apparently Jeremiah "held back" an additional copy because we can read his words today.
So God told me to write a post and tell fundamentalists to get out of 600 BCE Palestine and get into 21st century America. Do you accept my word that God told me that? It is not any more incredulous than assuming God told some individuals over two millennia ago that He wanted them to write a scroll---or, in the case of the Torah, some several authors to write scrolls.
With Jeremiah you should clarify---God wanted to add words (apparently He didn't get it right the first time), and second, He told Jeremiah to drop it in the ocean. But apparently Jeremiah "held back" an additional copy because we can read his words today.
So God told me to write a post and tell fundamentalists to get out of 600 BCE Palestine and get into 21st century America. Do you accept my word that God told me that? It is not any more incredulous than assuming God told some individuals over two millennia ago that He wanted them to write a scroll---or, in the case of the Torah, some several authors to write scrolls.
Yes of course God told them to write down exactly what He said. What is so hard to believe that? Even Paul said that his words are the word of God.
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