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Once again, as I clearly stated, the quotes by the given textual critics were with regard to the faithfulness of our texts to the original autographs and is a different issue than the inerrancy of the original autographs. Nor did I have them say what was quoted. They did say it. And since I have repeatedly stated that inerrancy refers to the original autographs and not to the copies, it is not I who am attempting to mislead people by what I have said.
Then why are you introducing verbiage that has nothing to do with inerrancy in a discussion which the OP has repeatedly stated is about INERRANCY?
It can only be to mislead unless you are going to admit to being mistaken.
It is surely a strange apologetic that says faith in Christ is all you need for salvation; and then says, you have no right to your faith in Christ unless you believe that the Bible is without error.
--Francis L. Patton
When discrepancies occur in the Holy Scripture, and we cannot har*monize them, let them pass. It does not endanger the articles of the Christian faith.
--Martin Luther
Difficult though it may be to understand, God chose to make his authority relevant to his creatures by means that necessitate some element of fallibility.
--Dewey M. Beegle
They did not err in what they proclaimed, but this does not mean that they were faultless in their recording of historical data or in their world-view, which is now outdated.
--Donald G. Bloesch
It is urged...that unless we can demonstrate what is called the inerrancy of the biblical record down even to its minutest details, the whole edifice of belief in revealed religion falls to the ground. This, on the face of it, is the most suicidal position for any defender of revelation to take up.
--James Orr
The Bible does not give us a doctrine of its own inspiration and authority that answers all the various questions we might like to ask. Its witness on this subject is unsystematic and somewhat fragmentary and enables us to reach important but modest conclusions.
--Clark H. Pinnock
In the last analysis the inerrancy theory is a logical deduction not well supported exegetically. Those who press it hard are elevating reason over Scripture....
--Pinnock
---------------
As Barr states: "In order to avoid imputing error to the Bible, fundamentalists twist and turn back and forward between literal and nonliteral...exegesis....The typical conservative evangeli*cal exegesis is literal, but only up to a point: when the point is reached where literal interpretation would make the Bible appear 'wrong,' a sudden switch to nonliteral interpretation is made."1 This fanatical devotion to inerrancy compromises the integrity of evangelical theology right at its roots.
---------------- to insist that the Bible is factually correct in all respects is to impose a scientific world-view on a prescientific document. Indeed, one cannot make this claim of even the best scientific documents. As Rudolf Bultmann emphasized, the Bible is the proclamation (kerygma) of God's saving grace; it is not to be taken as an encyclopedia of empirical facts. Bultmann would have been sympathetic to Robert M. Smith's comments about God's Inerrant Word, an anthology of articles by fundamentalists: "The authors... are right about the Bible being a perfect book but are wrong in the way they define perfection....They are defining perfect the way a mathematician or scientist would define it; they are not defining perfect the way the cross of Jesus Christ defines it."3 Evangelical rationalists repeatedly use extrabiblical standards to distort basic biblical meanings.Thomas Torrance of the University of Edinburgh maintains that the fundamentalists' crucial mistake is a form of nominalism: identifying the truth with statements about the truth. Torrance contends that the Bible, like all other created things, must have an element of deficiency so that it can point beyond itself to the truth of God.4 Torrance follows Karl Barth who declared that the Bible "is not the Revelation" but "the witness to the Revelation, and this is expressed in human terms...."5
The "detailed inerrancy" of evangelical rationalism is an excellent example of religious syncretism--a very ironic instance of it. In their bitter battle against modernism, they are just as modernist as their opponents in calling the Bible a factual treatise as well as a religious one. Both modernists and these Christians accept the same criterion for truth: the scientific method. In doing so these evangelicals unwittingly forget that for Christians God is the sole standard of truth. Bible scholar George E. Mendenhall phrases the preceding point this way:
Biblical fundamentalism, whether Jewish or Christian, cannot learn from the past because in so many respects the defense of presently accepted ideas about religion is thought to be the only purpose of biblical narrative. It must, therefore, support ideas of comparatively recent origin--ones that usually have nothing to do with the original meaning or intention of biblical narrative because the context is so radically different.6
A. G. Hebert concurs: "Hence, the inerrancy of the Bible, as it is understood today, is a new doctrine, and the modern fundamentalist is asserting something that no previous age has understood in anything like the modern sense."7
To sum up, fundamentalism's insistence on "inerrancy" is neither biblical nor historical. It is a modernistic cult.
How can the doctrine of Biblical inerrancy be a modernistic 'cult' as you disdainfully call it when we have statements from early church fathers who believed that the Bible was without error?
Look carefully into the Scriptures, which are the true utterances of the Holy Spirit. Observe that nothing of an unjust or counterfeit character is written in them.
Letter of Clement to the Corinthians 45:2-3 First Clement: Clement of Rome
Augustine;
For I confess to your Charity that I have learned to yield this respect and honour only to the canonical books of Scripture: of these alone do I most firmly believe that the authors were completely free from error.
Letters of Augustine, Letter 82, chapter 1.3 CHURCH FATHERS: Letter 82 (Augustine) or 116 (Jerome)
But you've been shown these before and ignore them.
You just don't get it,Finn. The Spirit never contradicts Jesus . . . just our ignorant ancestors who wrote about Him. You never test anything against the Spirit of agape love so you have no clue what we are talking about. You believe whatever is in the Bible no matter how contradictory or inconsistent it may be with the Spirit of agape love or Christ.
There is no need for you to tell others what they test, or dont test, because you are just claiming to know things you could not possibly know.
Did you not understand the question?
Tell me something the Spirit has told you which contradicts words of Jesus written in the Bible.
Which words of Jesus written in the Bible did you test against the spirit of agape love and found to be untrue?
Exactly and i am still waiting for you to answer this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps
Do you really need the bible to tell you that you reap what you sow in life, that if you live your life by reacting with an eye for an eye you are no different to the offender and bring your self down to their state of being, that if your life does not match your confession then who cares about your faith?.
So the question is, do you have something inside of you that gives you the ability to discern what is righteousness that you can follow it, or do you have to solely rely on the bible to instruct you?.
There are prophets in the Old Testament who God told them to sit down and write
Exo_17:14 Then Yahweh said to Moses: Write this as a reminder in a scroll, and put it in the ears of Joshua that I shall wipe out, yea wipe out the remembrance of Amalek from under the heavens.
Exo_34:1 Yahweh said to Moses: Carve for yourself two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on the tablets the words which came to be on the first tablets which you broke.
Exo_34:27 Yahweh said to Moses: Write for yourself these words, for at the bidding of these words I contract with you a covenant and with Israel.
Deu_31:19 And now, write down for yourselves this song and teach it to the sons of Israel. Put it in their mouths so that this song may come to be for Me as a testimony against the sons of Israel.
Isa_8:1 And Yahweh is saying to me, "Take your large new roll, and write on it with the stylus of a mortal:To hasten-loot-hurry-plunder."
Jer_30:2 `Thus spoke Yahweh, Elohim of Israel, saying, Write for you all the words that I have spoken unto you on a book."
Jer_36:28 `Turn, take to you another roll, and write on it all the former words that were on the first roll, that Jehoiakim king of Judah burnt,
Hab_2:2 And Yahweh is answering me and saying, Write the vision, and publish it on tablets, that he may run who is reading it."
God breathed? Yep. Inspired? You betcha.
As I have said, there are instances where specific words are given, to then claim that the whole thing is written that way is a HUGE leap beyond that,and actually works against proper use of the Bible.
Finn Jarber, do you think you can fully grasp the love of God by the bible? I suggest you read Eph 3:14-19 if you do, for Paul makes it perfectly clear how and where it is discovered, and it ain't the bible.
You are missing the whole point of the scriptures and limiting God by them.
Philip found Nathanael and told him, "We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote--Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
It was but a little that I passed from them, but I found him whom my soul loveth: I held him, and would not let him go.
Life is not to be found in the scriptures but in the one they testify of, so to suggest the bible goes hand in hand with the Living Word(Jesus Christ) is a mockery of both.
There is no need for you to tell others what they test, or dont test, because you are just claiming to know things you could not possibly know.
Did you not understand the question?
Tell me something the Spirit has told you which contradicts words of Jesus written in the Bible.
Which words of Jesus written in the Bible did you test against the spirit of agape love and found to be untrue?
Simple questions deserve simple answers.
Finn, just look at how far you have backed away from your original question in this regard in which you challenged anyone to show something the Spirit showed that was not in the Bible. Does that tell you anything?
How can the doctrine of Biblical inerrancy be a modernistic 'cult' as you disdainfully call it when we have statements from early church fathers who believed that the Bible was without error?
Look carefully into the Scriptures, which are the true utterances of the Holy Spirit. Observe that nothing of an unjust or counterfeit character is written in them.
Letter of Clement to the Corinthians 45:2-3 First Clement: Clement of Rome
Augustine;
For I confess to your Charity that I have learned to yield this respect and honour only to the canonical books of Scripture: of these alone do I most firmly believe that the authors were completely free from error.
Letters of Augustine, Letter 82, chapter 1.3 CHURCH FATHERS: Letter 82 (Augustine) or 116 (Jerome)
But you've been shown these before and ignore them.
The falling away from the true and living Spirit occurred with the Church fathers, after the death of Christ.
Finn, just look at how far you have backed away from your original question in this regard in which you challenged anyone to show something the Spirit showed that was not in the Bible. Does that tell you anything?
Can you answer the question, or not?
I am not looking for a chicken dance, I am looking for an answer.
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