Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The Bible teaches atonement this way: sin has caused a separation between mankind and God. Only in the inspired word of God via the Bible speaks of the atonement which describes the work Jesus carried out on our behalf so God and humankind can be “at-one” again. His death satisfied God’s justice by appeasing His anger. By faith alone a person immediately receives the benefits of Christ’s death and is reconciled with God. (Romans 5:11)
And when a person receives this atonement, it is not based on conditions like being sincere. We Christians know this because as God revealed Jeremiah 31:31-34 \ Hebrews 8:8-13.
There is nothing loving, just or merciful in requiring a horrendous scourging and crucifixion to forgive us for ANYTHING. There is nothing loving, just or merciful in EVER requiring blood sacrifices to appease Him for "whatever." Jesus has nothing to do with blood sacrifices or appeasement. Jesus just repaired the separation between human consciousness and God preventing an eternal separation for our entire species in its spiritual form. It had nothing to do with God's wrath over "whatever. That view of a supposedly loving God baffles me. No Mormon I have ever known (and I have known several) would EVER be like that under ANY circumstances. That you can accept a God you believe to be like that is an enigma.
Of course there are consequences for our violations of God's laws (both physical and spiritual) . . . but they are just consequences . . . NOT punishments or payments or whatever other weird notions of accountability plague the human imagination. If I violate the law of gravity I will simply experience the consequences . . . nothing more. We WILL reap whatever we sow . . . but no more and no less. But we CAN achieve cover for our failings under Christ's love for us all IF we love God and each other daily and repent when we don't. However, it has nothing to do with our salvation. That was ALL Jesus and had nothing to do with our individual failures.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
Then be baffled. I guess I'm just baffled over what you mean when you say that "Jesus repaired the separation, etc." How did He repair it? By preaching some memorable sermons? By performing some miracles? By leading an exemplary life?
We are spiritual beings formed in our consciousness and that consciousness is eternal. Unfortunately, no human consciousness ever remotely achieved the perfect agape love that IS our God. Had that not been remedied our entire species would forever have remained separated from God . . . as we are told Abraham and the ancients were despite their righteousness. Christ remedied that separation by attaining perfect agape love in His Human consciousness connecting all human consciousness (even Abraham, etc..) with God. That is how He is the Way to God.
Quote:
I'm not sure what you're saying, but if you're saying that my belief is atypical of general Mormon belief, you're wrong.
No . . . it is far more complimentary than that, Katz. It is saying the Mormons I have known are better than the God you claim to believe in, IMO.
Quote:
I believe that the consequence would have been eternal separation from God. Nothing sinful or imperfect can exist in His presence, and only through the atonement of Jesus Christ can the finite and imperfect be made infinite and perfect. No one else could have accomplished what He did.
Clearly we agree on this!
Quote:
Well, here is where we must agree to disagree. If we were to reap what we sow, we'd all be in real trouble, because none of us could ever hope to be reconciled to God based on our own actions alone.
Not so. We will reap whatever we sow UNLESS we repent and remove the evil from our Spirit in love of God and each other to receive the cover of Christ's love for us all.
Quote:
I believe that Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice accomplished two main things: (1) It assured that everyone who has ever lived (regardless of their individual circumstances, belief, obedience or anything else) will be resurrected and (except for basically a very few) be given at least a portion of the blessings God has in store for His children. (2) It paved the way for us to gain eternal life in God's presence, provided we have faith in Christ, sincerely repent of our sins and remain faithful to Him throughout our lives.
I believe Christ's substitution of His perfection for our species' inadequacies saved us all from separation from God. Not too different, Katz . . . except it does not require a belief in a punishing wrathful God who required blood sacrifices to be a loving Father.
No . . . it is far more complimentary than that, Katz. It is saying the Mormons I have known are better than the God you claim to believe in, IMO.
I'm pretty sure they would beg to differ with you.
By the way, since this thread is so active and posts are appearing several pages back almost the moment they're entered, I wanted to make sure you saw this.
The Bible teaches atonement this way: sin has caused a separation between mankind and God. Only in the inspired word of God via the Bible speaks of the atonement which describes the work Jesus carried out on our behalf so God and humankind can be “at-one” again. His death satisfied God’s justice by appeasing His anger. By faith alone a person immediately receives the benefits of Christ’s death and is reconciled with God. (Romans 5:11)
And when a person receives this atonement, it is not based on conditions like being sincere. We Christians know this because as God revealed Jeremiah 31:31-34 \ Hebrews 8:8-13.
There is a book called, "Believing Christ" by Stephen E. Robinson. You can get a paperback copy from amazon for 39 cents. It is only 125 pages long and can be easily read in two or three quick sessions. I know you find the Mormon belief in the Atonement to be revolting, disgusting, sickening, etc. If you were to buy this book and read it, you may very well still disagree with our doctrine. I'm guessing you would, as you seem to be 100% convinced that your belief on this issue is the only accurate one. But I would almost guarantee that it would give you a better understanding of our doctrine than you currently have. And an improved understanding never hurt anybody.
Extract: Digested: Parable of the Bicycle, and more...
A great analysis and not a word about satisfying God's wrath. As a matter of fact, he says nothing really about how the atonement works, just that it releases God's mercy, which it does.
Extract: Digested: Parable of the Bicycle, and more...
A great analysis and not a word about satisfying God's wrath. As a matter of fact, he says nothing really about how the atonement works, just that it releases God's mercy, which it does.
I'm guessing you haven't read the book. An extract is nothing more than a small sampling of what the book is about. Mormons don't really use the word "wrath" when speaking of God. You virtually never hear that word used in an LDS worship service. What you do hear a lot of talk about is "justice" and there are many places in the book where Jesus Christ's Atonement is spoken of as fulfilling the demands of both justice and mercy. I'm not saying that this book is going to change what anybody believes. It's just an exceptionally well-written explanation of one point of view, and that's why I recommended it.
Yes, Katz . . . but it is NOT the "payment" or "punishment" or "ransom" versions that depict Christ's loving sacrifice as demanded by God to appease His wrath and vengeance at human sinfulness. Christ was our species' "designated hitter" . . . our substitute who achieved what none of us was capable of achieving . . . perfect agape love . . . even under the direst of circumstances and duress. He elevated His HUMAN consciousness to the DIVINE and connected ALL human consciousness to God. THAT is how He is the Way, the Truth and the Life.
Well, since the wages of sin is death, I think the atonement makes perfect sense because Jesus made the way through his death to bring us back to God. When he was crucified, death could not hold him and he has the keys of death and hell, so he opened the way out of hell through his death. Some may call it a sacrifice. I'm sure if you died for someone you would consider that you had made yourself a living sacrifice - not to appease an angry God, but to change what had gone wrong in the spiritual realm which of course even the fall was preordained by God for a purpose - to manifest Gods glory into the universe (contrasting his great mercy with man's vile, hateful heart). Yes, I believe in the AT-ONE-MENT.
Ridiculous, huh? It is to me. But so is most of the "stay out of hell by repeating this" kind of faith. Imagine having a spouse who was that dull about love.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
