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I don't believe ANY of the savage and barbaric nonsense ABOUT God and His motives believed by our very childish and ignorant primitive ancestors. The things they believed ABOUT God and His motives are barbarous and preposterous . . . blood sacrifices, indeed!!!Total nonsense. Their descriptions of God are a ridiculous caricature of their human rulers with all the human psychological weaknesses and flaws. But I DO believe in the true inspirations contained in the Bible about Christ and the God whose TRUE NATURE He revealed unambiguously. Christ's God IS agape love and Christ demonstrated it perfectly even through scourging and crucifixion. You can keep your jealous, megalomaniacal Jewish tyrant God, HF . . . and continue to perform whatever tricks you believe your God requires of you in the obedience ring. I am a child of the God of Christ maturing to spiritual adulthood.
Jesus does portray the qualities of the Father--He is the image( Coll 1:15) --the image is never the real thing.
That is how one could see the Father in Jesus--Jesus did 0 of his own inititive--he only did what the Father taught him and asked him to do.
Gods power went through Jesus( Acts 2:22)-- same way it went through Moses.
Last line Lords prayer-trinity translations--The kingdom, power, and glory all belong to the Father.
It takes believing Jesus' truths over mens dogmas--most refuse to do that.
Just a side note, that may make you think.
We say that Jesus was all the sacrifices and that must mean that all the sacrifices were moved to Nisan 14, and so how was Jesus all the sacrifices on Passover and who gives authority to move the sacrifices to one day?
Ezekiel is the one who foretold it.
That the Yom Kippur goat and the rams of Pentecost, and the bull of Sukkot would all be killed on Nisan 14, and not only that, but a messiah would come and fulfill all the days in one day, and that this happens TWICE, that the coming of the Lord was in the spring with all the sacrifices, but at the second coming in the fall, ALL the sacrifices are yet again killed on the same day, only it's not Passover, it happens on the feast of Tabernacles.
Here is the first coming of Jesus AND the second coming, two rains.
Ezekiel 45
{first coming in the spring}
In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.
And upon that day shall the prince prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bullock for a sin offering.
And seven days of the feast he shall prepare a burnt offering to the Lord, seven bullocks and seven rams without blemish daily the seven days; and a kid of the goats daily for a sin offering.
And he shall prepare a meat offering of an ephah for a bullock, and an ephah for a ram, and an hin of oil for an ephah.
{second coming in the fall}
In the seventh month, in the fifteenth day of the month, shall he do the like in the feast of the seven days, according to the sin offering, according to the burnt offering, and according to the meat offering, and according to the oil.
But notice that the prince is offering sacrifices for himself also.
Judaism believes in a thoroughly evil tyrant God with far too many human weaknesses and megalomaniacal tendencies to be taken seriously. Jesus came to correct those absurd barbaric beliefs about God and His motives and reveal His TRUE NATURE. The God of Jesus IS agape love . . . not your wrathful Jewish tyrant. Your Jewish God wants obedient "Pets" in obedience training performing all the appropriate tricks. Christ's God wants loving children to mature into loving adults. You can keep your Jewish traditions, rituals, prayers and cycles . . . or whatever. They are of no interest to the God of Christ and that is the God I believe in.
God isn't a tyrant--- He is the owner of all creation--he warned mankind there is 0 room for sin in his creation. He will resurrect many to have an opportunity to gain life everlasting in his kingdom--1000 years 0 satan influences to learn and apply his will.
When Jesus leads Gods armies to the earth at Harmageddon-rev 16 and rev 19) every kingdom( govts,armies,supporters) will be mislead to stand in opposition to Gods king--99% will fall. Jesus is the exact image of his Father--0 sin allowed. the wages= death.
I don't believe ANY of the savage and barbaric nonsense ABOUT God and His motives believed by our very childish and ignorant primitive ancestors. The things they believed ABOUT God and His motives are barbarous and preposterous . . . blood sacrifices, indeed!!!Total nonsense. Their descriptions of God are a ridiculous caricature of their human rulers with all the human psychological weaknesses and flaws. But I DO believe in the true inspirations contained in the Bible about Christ and the God whose TRUE NATURE He revealed unambiguously. Christ's God IS agape love and Christ demonstrated it perfectly even through scourging and crucifixion. You can keep your jealous, megalomaniacal Jewish tyrant God, HF . . . and continue to perform whatever tricks you believe your God requires of you in the obedience ring. I am a child of the God of Christ maturing to spiritual adulthood.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjw47
God isn't a tyrant--- He is the owner of all creation--he warned mankind there is 0 room for sin in his creation. He will resurrect many to have an opportunity to gain life everlasting in his kingdom--1000 years 0 satan influences to learn and apply his will.
When Jesus leads Gods armies to the earth at Harmageddon-rev 16 and rev 19) every kingdom( govts,armies,supporters) will be mislead to stand in opposition to Gods king--99% will fall. Jesus is the exact image of his Father--0 sin allowed. the wages= death.
You say God is not a tyrant and then go on to describe exactly that! This is an example of taking the exact opposite understanding from Christ's unambiguous demonstration of God's TRUE NATURE. You take the OT beliefs about God's nature formed under the veil of ignorance and superstition of primitive minds and apply it to Christ. The exact opposite of what He said to do, He said when you see Him you see the Father . . . NOT when we see the Father (presumably in the future) we will see Christ.
You say God is not a tyrant and then go on to describe exactly that! This is an example of taking the exact opposite understanding from Christ's unambiguous demonstration of God's TRUE NATURE. You take the OT beliefs about God's nature formed under the veil of ignorance and superstition of primitive minds and apply it to Christ. The exact opposite of what He said to do, He said when you see Him you see the Father . . . NOT when we see the Father (presumably in the future) we will see Christ.
Matthew 5
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
The vast majority of Greek Scholars disagree that John 1:1c should be translated as indefinite (a god). As one of the greatest Greek scholars of the 20th century, Dr. Julius Mantey stated;
''I would advise him to get a translation other than the NWT, because ninety-nine percent of the scholars of the world who know Greek and who have helped translate the Bible are in disagreement with the JWs. People who are looking for the truth ought to know what the majority of the scholars really believe.'' For an Answer: Christian Apologetics - Mantey & Martin
No, it should not be translated as ''The God was the Word.'' Again, if John had used the article in John 1:1c it would have indicated that the Word was the same person as the Father. And that would have been Modalism. On the other hand, John was monotheistic and did not therefore imply that the Word was 'a god' as in another god.
As for John 6:70, Jesus was simply saying that Satan's working in Judas was tantamount to Judas being the devil. Not that he was literally the fallen angel referred to as Satan.
On the other hand, Jesus is shown to have the attributes that make God God. He is the Creator and sustainer of all that exists (Col. 1:16-17). He is immutable (Heb. 13:8)
The New Testament writers applied to Jesus Old Testament passages that were in reference to Yahweh thus showing that they believed Jesus to be God (Yahweh). Again, not the Father, but the Son. An example is Hebrews 1:10-12 compared with Psalm 102:25-27. The one true God is Yahweh. Both the Father and the Son share the name Yahweh.
With all due respect to the Coptics, again, the Bible is monotheistic and therefore does not make Jesus out to be merely 'a god.' That was not John's intended meaning. The way that John worded John 1:1 is the best possible way of showing that while Jesus is God, He is not the Father.
F. F. Bruce was not ignorant. Scholars regularly disagree with each other. But as stated, the vast majority of Greek scholars do not believe that John 1:1c should be translated as indefinite.
Here is a list of quite a few scholars who disagree with the NWT's translation of John 1:1c.
The list includes Dr. William Barclay who though he may have changed his mind nevertheless still stated, as your own quote shows, "You could translate [John 1:1c], so far as the Greek goes: `the Word was a God'; but it seems obvious that this is so muchagainst the whole of the rest of the New Testament that it is wrong." - p. 205, Ever yours, edited by C. L. Rawlins, Labarum Publ., 1985. [Bolding mine]
ou have just demonstrated that you simply read, accept and cut and paste with no knowledge. I have been out of town but will be responding tomorrow and it will be so clear you need to do what I did long ago. I CHECKED UP on what was said to see if it was true or not.
Your explanation of John 6:70 supports my position and you don't even see how it denies the Trinitarian view. And as for Mantey oh boy ..........
You say God is not a tyrant and then go on to describe exactly that! This is an example of taking the exact opposite understanding from Christ's unambiguous demonstration of God's TRUE NATURE. You take the OT beliefs about God's nature formed under the veil of ignorance and superstition of primitive minds and apply it to Christ. The exact opposite of what He said to do, He said when you see Him you see the Father . . . NOT when we see the Father (presumably in the future) we will see Christ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius
Matthew 5 17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus wrong?
NO . . .Jesus is NOT wrong . . . YOU are. Your problem is worrying about laws. Christ said the two commands to love God and each other encompass ALL the law! If you understood the Spirit of the law as agape love . . . it would be easy for you to see this and know what is and is not acceptable to God who IS agape love. God is not interested in specific "tricks" to be performed in obedience trials. That was for the schoolmaster days of our primitive ancestors. We are to learn the Spirit behind the laws . . . NOT the letter. That Spirit is agape love . . . and that expands the scope of prohibitions enormously beyond any list.
The 21st century acceptance of barbaric and savage carnal-minded interpretations of God by our "natural man" forefathers is incomprehensible to me. Our "natural man" ancestors could not accept the "things of the Spirit of God" because they were terrified of Spirits. That same fear of God (who IS Spirit) pervaded their beliefs about God's motives . . . and apparently pervades your views of God's motives as well. The barbaric idea that God required blood sacrifices to appease His wrath against humans is preposterous savage thinking that we should long ago have outgrown. What kind of rational human being believes that our God is such a ruthless tyrant . . . and then claims to love Him????
Only by retaining the "natural man" carnal thinking could such a ridiculous idea be perpetuated for so long. If the true Spirit of agape love was ever applied to understanding God and His motives this barbarity would have long ago disappeared from religious dogma. It is the FAILURE to apply the Spirit of agape love to interpreting scripture that has caused the current majority anti-Christ apostasy prophesied for these latter days.
Jesus did not die on the cross so the barbaric God in the OT could be appeased by blood sacrifice . . . as our ignorant savage ancestors believed. The God Christ revealed belied those savage and barbaric beliefs about God. Christianity was to inculcate the new beliefs about God in a New Covenant . . . NOT perpetuate the old beliefs from the OT. Instead of realizing that the promises of the OT were fulfilled by Christ and no longer useful . . . the religious leaders incorporated what are completely opposite beliefs about God to those revealed by Christ.
This corruption has produced millennia of abuse and evil in the name of God. A true travesty! It continues today with the imposition of OT fear and evil beliefs about God to ostracize and mistreat others in the name of God. Satan could not have produced a more effective corruption of the agape love God seeks from us than the religious leaders have achieved by retaining the OT beliefs about the motives of God.
It never was about sacrifices to appease God's wrath. It has always been about agape love toward one another. It is a sea change in CONTEXT surrounding the interpretation of God and our relationship to Him. We ARE His children and we are to do as His first-born Son Christ did . . . be "born again" as Spirit upon our physical death. God does NOT hold our sins against us and there is no eternal torment to fear. There is nothing to fear from God whatsoever. We WILL reap whatever we sow and do not repent of . . . but no more and no less. That should be more than enough to occupy our concern.
Christ said "When you see me you see the Father." He provided the clearest and most unambiguous example of the Father. He was unjustly judged, horrendously scourged and crucified between thieves while letting a murderer go. What did He DO? This was the epitome of a LACK of mercy. Yet Christ smote no one and loved even His torturers and murderers unto death. THAT is our loving Father's MERCIFUL nature . . . NOT the wrathful, vengeful, eternally tormenting tyrant who cursed all His children over a fruit and needed blood SACRIFICE to appease Him for the continued wrongdoing of His children!!!
If you cannot see the stark difference between the God revealed by Christ and the savage barbaric beliefs ABOUT God in the OT . . . you will never understand the importance of agape love to knowing God and Jesus. You will remain under the veil of ignorance over reading the OT that Christ came to lift. You refuse to try to understand the message of the Gospel as Christ intended it to be interpreted. We use the same source but we do not use the same context of the nature of God.
You use the interpretations of God of our ignorant ancestors to interpret Christ when you should do the exact opposite if you are a Christian. Christians use the TRUE NATURE of God revealed by Christ to be agape love . . . to interpret the scriptures . . . NOT the OT nature of a vengeful wrathful God who needed to be appeased by blood sacrifice. That is why you fail to know God and Jesus. There is no way to reconcile the descriptions of God revealed by Christ with the barbaric ones in the OT. It is the descriptions that differ . . . NOT God and it is the descriptions revealed by Christ that are TRUE.
ou have just demonstrated that you simply read, accept and cut and paste with no knowledge. I have been out of town but will be responding tomorrow and it will be so clear you need to do what I did long ago. I CHECKED UP on what was said to see if it was true or not.
Your explanation of John 6:70 supports my position and you don't even see how it denies the Trinitarian view. And as for Mantey oh boy ..........
Do NOT blindly follow such men.
The Trinitarian view is that the one true God subsists in three 'Persons' which was demonstrated back in post #8 from Scripture.
Post #8 reposted.
This anti-Trinity garbage again? The usual denials by the usual people never end. The doctrine of the Trinity which is held by the Protestants, the Roman Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox Church based on what is revealed in the Bible, but which is denied by various cults is that there is one God who subsists in three 'Persons'. The word 'Person' as applied to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is not to be thought of in the same sense as when used of people, for God is Spirit. But there are three centers of consciousness within the Being which is God.
There is one true God: Deut. 6:4, John 17:3,
Yet the Father, the Son, and the Holy are all called God and are shown to be distinct 'Persons.'
The Father is God: 1 Cor. 8:6
The Son is God: John 1:1
The Holy Spirit is God: Acts 5:3-4
Yet they are distinct from each other: 2 Cor. 13:14
And 1 Cor. 8:6 which is mentioned above is no more denying that Jesus is God then it is denying that the Father is LORD.
Yes, the Trinity is a Biblical concept, and no, the word 'Trinity' is not found in the Bible. It is the technical name given to the Biblical concept of one God in three 'Persons.'
And accusing someone of simply cutting and pasting without knowledge, or of blindly following someone, is a poor way to argue.
Last edited by Michael Way; 05-08-2015 at 07:32 AM..
NO . . .Jesus is NOT wrong . . . YOU are. Your problem is worrying about laws. Christ said the two commands to love God and each other encompass ALL the law! If you understood the Spirit of the law as agape love . . . it would be easy for you to see this and know what is and is not acceptable to God who IS agape love. God is not interested in specific "tricks" to be performed in obedience trials. That was for the schoolmaster days of our primitive ancestors. We are to learn the Spirit behind the laws . . . NOT the letter. That Spirit is agape love . . . and that expands the scope of prohibitions enormously beyond any list.
The 21st century acceptance of barbaric and savage carnal-minded interpretations of God by our "natural man" forefathers is incomprehensible to me. Our "natural man" ancestors could not accept the "things of the Spirit of God" because they were terrified of Spirits. That same fear of God (who IS Spirit) pervaded their beliefs about God's motives . . . and apparently pervades your views of God's motives as well. The barbaric idea that God required blood sacrifices to appease His wrath against humans is preposterous savage thinking that we should long ago have outgrown. What kind of rational human being believes that our God is such a ruthless tyrant . . . and then claims to love Him????
Only by retaining the "natural man" carnal thinking could such a ridiculous idea be perpetuated for so long. If the true Spirit of agape love was ever applied to understanding God and His motives this barbarity would have long ago disappeared from religious dogma. It is the FAILURE to apply the Spirit of agape love to interpreting scripture that has caused the current majority anti-Christ apostasy prophesied for these latter days.
Jesus did not die on the cross so the barbaric God in the OT could be appeased by blood sacrifice . . . as our ignorant savage ancestors believed. The God Christ revealed belied those savage and barbaric beliefs about God. Christianity was to inculcate the new beliefs about God in a New Covenant . . . NOT perpetuate the old beliefs from the OT. Instead of realizing that the promises of the OT were fulfilled by Christ and no longer useful . . . the religious leaders incorporated what are completely opposite beliefs about God to those revealed by Christ.
This corruption has produced millennia of abuse and evil in the name of God. A true travesty! It continues today with the imposition of OT fear and evil beliefs about God to ostracize and mistreat others in the name of God. Satan could not have produced a more effective corruption of the agape love God seeks from us than the religious leaders have achieved by retaining the OT beliefs about the motives of God.
It never was about sacrifices to appease God's wrath. It has always been about agape love toward one another. It is a sea change in CONTEXT surrounding the interpretation of God and our relationship to Him. We ARE His children and we are to do as His first-born Son Christ did . . . be "born again" as Spirit upon our physical death. God does NOT hold our sins against us and there is no eternal torment to fear. There is nothing to fear from God whatsoever. We WILL reap whatever we sow and do not repent of . . . but no more and no less. That should be more than enough to occupy our concern.
Christ said "When you see me you see the Father." He provided the clearest and most unambiguous example of the Father. He was unjustly judged, horrendously scourged and crucified between thieves while letting a murderer go. What did He DO? This was the epitome of a LACK of mercy. Yet Christ smote no one and loved even His torturers and murderers unto death. THAT is our loving Father's MERCIFUL nature . . . NOT the wrathful, vengeful, eternally tormenting tyrant who cursed all His children over a fruit and needed blood SACRIFICE to appease Him for the continued wrongdoing of His children!!!
If you cannot see the stark difference between the God revealed by Christ and the savage barbaric beliefs ABOUT God in the OT . . . you will never understand the importance of agape love to knowing God and Jesus. You will remain under the veil of ignorance over reading the OT that Christ came to lift. You refuse to try to understand the message of the Gospel as Christ intended it to be interpreted. We use the same source but we do not use the same context of the nature of God.
You use the interpretations of God of our ignorant ancestors to interpret Christ when you should do the exact opposite if you are a Christian. Christians use the TRUE NATURE of God revealed by Christ to be agape love . . . to interpret the scriptures . . . NOT the OT nature of a vengeful wrathful God who needed to be appeased by blood sacrifice. That is why you fail to know God and Jesus. There is no way to reconcile the descriptions of God revealed by Christ with the barbaric ones in the OT. It is the descriptions that differ . . . NOT God and it is the descriptions revealed by Christ that are TRUE.
Maybe you should look again at what Jesus says, cause it sure aint what you are saying.
Jesus wrong?
Matthew 5
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Anyone who doesn't keep the least of the laws and teaches others not to keep the laws will be the least in the kingdom of heaven.
They are still saved if they speak against the law and don't keep the law, but they are the least, and that means that they are sent to the outer court of gentiles JUST BECAUSE they didn't keep the laws and they taught others not to keep the laws.
NOT MY WORDS, words of a wise Messiah.
A Jewish Messiah that never came to do away with the law, AS HE SAYS.
But liars are what killed Jesus and all his disciples, liars were paid to tell lies saying,'' Jesus and his disciples are teaching people not to keep the law.''
Then lies were told about Paul saying that Paul taught people not to keep the laws, and so Paul has to go out of his way to prove the liars wrong, he proves without a doubt that he was not teaching people not to keep the laws.
You say God is not a tyrant and then go on to describe exactly that! This is an example of taking the exact opposite understanding from Christ's unambiguous demonstration of God's TRUE NATURE. You take the OT beliefs about God's nature formed under the veil of ignorance and superstition of primitive minds and apply it to Christ. The exact opposite of what He said to do, He said when you see Him you see the Father . . . NOT when we see the Father (presumably in the future) we will see Christ.
God is the creator--He sets the rules-- He warned mankind--no room for sin in his creation--death is the wages of sin. Many false teachers claim Jesus' death covered ones sin-- all the apostles died and paid the wages. The only ones Jesus death covered are the anointed, who are changed in the twinkling of an eye during the tribulation, and the great multitude who will be brought through-Har-mageddon. Everyone who died before those two events--paid the wages of sin themselves.
Jesus showed what he will do in Gods kingdom for obedient mankind, not for the disobedient--the lake of fire is set for them.
The Father was in heaven while Jesus was on earth--they are not the same in being--they are the same in purpose as all true followers are--they become one with them--Jesus said--The Father is greater than i.
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