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Actually, in most situations, that is never mentioned. Those who use our medical and dental clinic or food pantry are aware that we are a Christian organization, but no one is pressured or confronted about their beliefs or church membership.
Actually yes, if you fill the belly of the hungry, you have converted them from being hungry to being full.
and provide for those who grieve in Zion-- to bestow on them a crown of beauty instead of ashes, the oil of joy instead of mourning, and a garment of praise instead of a spirit of despair.
What purpose are you posting on here other than to convert christians to atheism.
Sorry, but the U.S. is not (yet) a Christian theocracy. People will not be forced to join a church in order to survive.
No, the coming Millennium will be a true Theocracy. Every system of government that man has tried to build has failed. The US is in dire straits right now economically. What have all the social programs done except for create more government dependents? Take a good hard look at what's going on in Greece. That's where we are headed. Once handouts are no longer available then people will riot because they have been raised to expect free stuff all their lives. Many are third and forth generation govt dependents.
Where did you see in my comments that I was asking for a theocracy now? I wrote that the Church was meant to meet the needs of the poor. It was working just fine until the US decided to become a Socialist government. As Rand warned now the "takers" outnumber the "makers." Not just talking about those on welfare either. I'm more concerned with all the career politicians who use legislation to keep their scheme rolling. Those who actually make a living have had about enough of it and when there's no one left to produce and no one left to pay for those who just take what then? It won't be a pretty sight.
Christianity is the only religion where you don't have to "do" anything. The work was "done" when Jesus paid for the sins of those who belong to Him on the cross. There is nothing you can "do" to earn your way into Heaven. Without Faith it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6).
You DO realize, I hope, that you're quoting Paul's alleged gospel and not Jesus'. Jesus (and James backed him on this and Paul bitterly opposed both James AND Jesus on this) stressed that salvation came by faith + works (obedience to the law). Paul (and not even Paul really since the foundational scripture of faith alone (Ephesians 2:8) wasn't even written by Paul. Ephesians is a psuedoepigraphical (READ: forgery) epistle written by someone who attached Paul's name to it so that he could get his epistle read by the early Christian Church, who thought it was actually Paul who wrote it.
READ THE FOLLOWING CAREFULLY: So the entire foundation of Christian theology---salvation by faith alone---comes from an author whose name we don't even know, some anonymous crank who crawled out from underneath a rock somewhere. More than Paul, this one guy pulled off the biggest theological heist in the history of the entire human civilization by fooling billions of people into abandoning Jesus Christ's teachings and following his theology which he craftily attributed to Paul.
Still anxious to hang your hat on salvation by faith alone knowing this now?
You DO realize, I hope, that you're quoting Paul's alleged gospel and not Jesus'. Jesus (and James backed him on this and Paul bitterly opposed both James AND Jesus on this) stressed that salvation came by faith + works (obedience to the law). Paul (and not even Paul really since the foundational scripture of faith alone (Ephesians 2:8) wasn't even written by Paul. Ephesians is a psuedoepigraphical (READ: forgery) epistle written by someone who attached Paul's name to it so that he could get his epistle read by the early Christian Church, who thought it was actually Paul who wrote it.
READ THE FOLLOWING CAREFULLY: So the entire foundation of Christian theology---salvation by faith alone---comes from an author whose name we don't even know, some anonymous crank who crawled out from underneath a rock somewhere. More than Paul, this one guy pulled off the biggest theological heist in the history of the entire human civilization by fooling billions of people into abandoning Jesus Christ's teachings and following his theology which he craftily attributed to Paul.
Still anxious to hang your hat on salvation by faith alone knowing this now?
This is, at best, a gross oversimplification and, at worst a flat out erroneous description of what we know of the Ephesian author. Ephesians as Scripture and Pauline authorship was accepted by the patristic writers, including Clement, Polycarp and Ignatius. The Apostolic leaders both orthodox and heretic were all in favor of Ephesians as both Pauline in authorship and accepted as Scripture in the first century. (80-90 A.D.)
Ignoring arguments of authorship, Paul doesn't contradict Jesus at all and careful study clearly shows that Christianity requires both faith and works and salvation is not merely a 'lightswitch' event in a persons life. We cannot earn our salvation through works, as it required the 'narrow road' to be created by the sacrifice of Jesus. However, the Scripture teaches that one must walk the road order to arrive at the intended destination.
This is, at best, a gross oversimplification and, at worst a flat out erroneous description of what we know of the Ephesian author. Ephesians as Scripture and Pauline authorship was accepted by the patristic writers, including Clement, Polycarp and Ignatius. The Apostolic leaders both orthodox and heretic were all in favor of Ephesians as both Pauline in authorship and accepted as Scripture in the first century. (80-90 A.D.)
Ignoring arguments of authorship, Paul doesn't contradict Jesus at all and careful study clearly shows that Christianity requires both faith and works and salvation is not merely a 'lightswitch' event in a persons life. We cannot earn our salvation through works, as it required the 'narrow road' to be created by the sacrifice of Jesus. However, the Scripture teaches that one must walk the road order to arrive at the intended destination.
I understand this is a hard pill to swallow but it's the truth. Scholars couldn't care less what churchmen thought 2000 years ago. They also thought the world was flat and that the sun revolved around the earth because it's in the Bible. That didn't make them right then and it doesn't make them right now.
Here' verifiable proof that Ephesians is a known forgery:
Quote:
For example, [Bart] Ehrman says the book of Ephesians doesn’t conform to Paul’s distinctive Greek writing style. He says Paul wrote in short, pointed sentences while Ephesians is full of long Greek sentences (the opening sentence of thanksgiving in Ephesians unfurls a sentence that winds through 12 verses, he says).
“There’s nothing wrong with extremely long sentences in Greek; it just isn’t the way Paul wrote. It’s like Mark Twain and William Faulkner; they both wrote correctly, but you would never mistake the one for the other." Moreover, [Ephesians'] content of what the author says "stands at odds with Paul’s own thought, but is in line with the [writer of] Ephesians.”
Or this:
Quote:
It appears that the majority of New Testament scholars agree that Ephesians is a forgery; and that one of the primary reasons for this consensus is because of this very passage, which contradicts what Paul wrote in his other epistles.
Or this boatload of evidence by noted scholars:
Quote:
Mack, Burton L., Who Wrote The New Testament, 1995 Page 183: The letters to the Ephesians and Colossians, thought to have been written between 80 and 90, were not written by Paul. There is no suggestion of the personal Paul in either of them. The style, the vocabulary, and the rhetoric are different from the authentic Paulines. They were written in Paul’s name after his death probably by scribes loyal to the school that survived him. They are included among the Pauline letters because by the time the church started drawing up lists of literature acceptable for public reading in the third and fourth centuries, Ephesians and Colossians were already a part of the "letters of Paul." Martin, Michael, The Case Against God, 1991 Page 184: In Ephesians Paul’s teachings are diluted. No mention is made of his heated arguments for freedom from the Jewish law, the justification of sinners, faith in Christ, scriptural precedence, epic revisions or apocalyptic scenarios and threats. These are the topics that dominate the authentic letters. Page 188: Paul used the term "congregation" to refer to a local group whereas the author of Ephesians used the term in the singular to refer to the church universal. The New Oxford Annotated Bible Page 272 NT: There are important contrasts between Ephesians and the letters that we can confidently ascribe to Paul. Many of the words in Ephesians do not appear elsewhere in the apostle’s correspondence, and some important terms have a different meaning here from their meaning in letters that are surely Paul’s. The style, with its loose collection of phrases and clauses and long sentences, is not characteristic of Paul’s writing. Ephesians is, therefore, judged to be a forgery. Wells, G. A., The Historical Evidence for Jesus, 1988 Page 21: Colossians is judged to have been written not by Paul but by one of his pupils. Paul’s ideas as expressed in Romans (6:3-5) have been greatly modified. Page 53: Ephesians was written about 90, some 25 years after Paul’s death. During Paul’s lifetime the terms for admitting gentiles into the church was at the core of a protracted controversy. Ephesians addresses the gentiles (2:11) in a situation where such problems have been solved. Therefore, it has to be of a much later date. Wells, G.A., Did Jesus Exist? 1986 Pages 17-18: Colossians and Ephesians are considered forgeries. They present an ecclesiastical organization of a far more advanced kind than existed in Paul’s day. For example, according to Ephesians 2:20-21 the faithful are said to be dependent for salvation not directly on Jesus but on officers of the Church. This is a clear contradiction of 1 Cor. 3:10-11 which reads: According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
You cannot win this debate, Maxx. The evidence we have is so heavily weighed in favor of Ephesians being a forgery that it's useless to deny it, no matter how much you want Paul to be Ephesians' actually author. HE WAS NOT THE AUTHOR!!
Judging by your 'sources', I already have. Ehrman? Mack? Martin? You've truly lined up a veritable who's who of fringe skeptics and atheists. Great job. (Sarcasm) Even if you strip away the endless layers of bias in these quotes, they are simple appeals to authority, and that is fallacious. A closer examination of the actual arguments shows them to be outdated and not accepted by the majority of Bible scholars.
Let's do a quick Google search to see where you got this 'verifiable proof'...
Ah, looks like TruthSeekers. Well, this website definitely seems like a scholarly place where one would find unbiased truth regarding Paul.
Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.truthseekers.co.za/
For one - there are many corruptions of scripture that have been placed there by "lying scribes" (Jer 8:8) and you'll also notice that Jesus (Yeshua) chose only 12 apostles. Yet most of the church today seems to be following apostle 13, namely Paul. Didn't Jesus (Yeshua) warn us about the leaven of the Pharisees? And yet Paul, who called himself an apostle, near the end of his ministry states that he is a Pharisee and moreover the son of a Pharisee (Acts 23:6).
Who did Jesus (Yeshua) talk about when he commended the church at Ephesus (in Asia), for testing people who said they were apostles yet were liars? (Rev 2:2)
When last did you compare Paul's words to those of Jesus (Yeshua) and/or to those of the rest of the Bible?
Remember that Jesus (Yeshua) chose 12 apostles and yet He stated that one of them was a devil (John 6:70). So God can just as well choose somebody for a purpose yet that person is not one of His. Well here at TruthSeekers we search out the truth in these last days. An extensive number of articles are provided as well as a forum, to discuss matters of truth with others.
Oh my I am so shocked. Seriously.
The truth is that the Pauline authorship of Ephesians was not questioned for almost 1,800 years after it was written! It has always been accepted as Pauline, even by the early church fathers, who made it their business to weed the wheat from the chaff. Ephesians was quoted as Scripture by Clement, Ignatius and Polycarp, all in the first century!
Even those disciples of the church fathers in the second century believed whole-heartedly in the Pauline authorship of Ephesians. Irenaeus, a disciple of Polycarp said in his writings, "...this Letter (Ephesians) has always been classified as one of the homologumena. Even the Gnostics, e.g., Marcion and the Valentinians, recognized Paul as the author of this Epistle.”
All the arguments against Pauline authorship have been created in the modern era, and are not widely accepted by most modern scholars.
So forgive me if I do not concede the argument based on your amazing 'verifiable proof'.
Actually, in most situations, that is never mentioned. Those who use our medical and dental clinic or food pantry are aware that we are a Christian organization, but no one is pressured or confronted about their beliefs or church membership.
That would only be true if the clinic and pantry were run anonymously.
It's such a small cost to the large church, which you have admitted it is (large church). If it's a portion of the already small 10% of the TOTAL tithes which they give back to the community, maybe it costs them 1%, or maybe a little more, and I'm sure there were many meetings and "prayers" to make the decision to open it. But it's just a promotional gimmick. Pure advertising. Like a bank giving away a free toaster to open an account. And the few patients lucky enough to receive treatment are smart enough to see through it all. I would hate to be a part of that if I were a medical professional.
Last edited by OzzyRules; 05-22-2015 at 05:32 AM..
That would only be true if the clinic and pantry were run anonymously.
It's such a small cost to the large church, which you have admitted it is (large church). If it's a portion of the already small 10% of the TOTAL tithes which they give back to the community, maybe it costs them 1%, or maybe a little more, and I'm sure there were many meetings and "prayers" to make the decision to open it. But it's just a promotional gimmick. Pure advertising. Like a bank giving away a free toaster to open an account. And the few patients lucky enough to receive treatment are smart enough to see through it all. I would hate to be a part of that if I were a medical professional.
Your basis for this accusation? One may be skeptical without manufacturing unsubstantiated data.
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